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A idea for a new PAP machine
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space45 Offline

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Post: #1
A idea for a new PAP machine
I do CNC and other automated device things, I am now getting deeper into 3D printers and such. so my idea is what about a open source CPAP, APAP, VPAP or what ever machine?

the machines seem to be out of this world expensive and I know why, insurance companies will pay, and anything connected to health need big time insurance and they need big time money for covering the cost of getting sued. so you end up with big $$$$$$ for you and me, really all the unit is is a computer controlled fan that blows air. now yes it has sensors and a few other things but for the most part it is a fan, high tech fan but fan non the less. one could 3D print the housing and use Arduino based controllers for making it work.

one could have it monitor hart and o2 as well as other things and do every thing a commercial unit does but at a fraction of the cost. add to it as needed, plain CPAP no problem, want more just upgrade by buying a sensor or 2 and load in new code to the controller and your upgraded.

would be easy to have it monitor and record your o2 and even alarm if your wanting. you could set it up for lots of alarm events, full screen readout so you know why the alarm went off and for other function like setting things up.

one could have it work with sleepyhead, another open source product for the apnea crowd, this would just be some hardware to go along with the software.

this could be big as us rich guys in developed countries are not the only ones in need of CPAP units, I am sure there would be a great need for inexpensive alternatives that can turn out to be much better units then the ones we are using now. more options and features for much less money.

I would love to have o2 reading as well as being able to add other options and do it all for very little money. in less time then it took to have my unit shipped to me I could have printed a unit and had a functioning machine. all the parts could be gotten local and been here in a day or 2 not weeks that my unit took.

just a thought, looking for feed back on this, I will still play with the idea as I would like a back up unit in case mine dies, so I will be working to this end anyways as I do think it is a cool idea, already looked into making o2 sensors and it looks very doable. I know making the case is a snap, and getting a motor and making the impeller for the fan unit is a easy do so adding a few sensors and some code and one would have a basic functioning unit.

sound like fun to me, and maybe it will help others that are not able to pay the price of a good working unit. I know some will say just buy used, but if you make one from off the shelf parts then it will be a fixable unit that could last for several life times of use. mind you buying a used one would be cheap and easy, but can others in 3rd world places buy our used units, and to them it is still big bucks, I am thinking of a new useable unit for less then $100, if using used parts and doing some scrounging it could be less, and the used parts do not have to be CPAP parts

anyways feed back would be great

thanks
stan
04-03-2014 02:03 PM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #2
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
Where will you get the control circuity?
They are RX devices in the US; what about approval?
How do you limit your liability?
Who pays the medical device tax?
If you export, there may be duty.
Some things require export permits.

I've seen simple items restricted under ITAR. International Traffic in Arms Regulations. At one time, the USA deemed computer chips with a speed-power product under a defined curve as weapons of war under ITAR.

If you reverse engineer an existing design, you may be sued for patent infringement. So, you need legal council involved from the start.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
(This post was last modified: 04-03-2014 03:18 PM by justMongo.)
04-03-2014 03:11 PM
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herbm Offline

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Post: #3
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
Software/firmware must be written.

The data does not analyze itself. Even a straight CPAP machine does a LOT of calculations.

Sweet Dreams,

HerbM
Sleep study AHI: 49 RDI: 60 -- APAP 10-11 w/AHI: 1.5 avg for 7-days (up due likely to hip replacement recovery)

"We can all breathe together or we will all suffocate alone."
04-03-2014 03:37 PM
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SleepWrangler Offline

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Post: #4
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
(04-03-2014 02:03 PM)space45 Wrote:  I do CNC and other automated device things, I am now getting deeper into 3D printers and such. so my idea is what about a open source CPAP, APAP, VPAP or what ever machine?

[snip]

anyways feed back would be great

thanks
stan

As far as I can tell most of the market price is due to regulation, quality control, tight management of distribution, and the inherent risk of being a medical device. The per unit bill of material cost is a very small part of the retail price.

You've got to assume the market leaders have lots of patent protection. You may want to start with a patent search.

I am sure the talent exists to do open source micro-controller software. Seems less complicated than, for example, writing control software for a quadcopter or a self-navigating robot. I'd hate to test buggy algorithms on myself night after night. Hopefully you don't wake up dead. :-)

There have been successful kickstarter projects for EEG and SO2 so maybe the community is ready for CPAP too.
(This post was last modified: 04-03-2014 04:04 PM by SleepWrangler.)
04-03-2014 04:02 PM
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space45 Offline

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Post: #5
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
your making it for yourself so I would guess the RX would not matter much, no different then buying a used machine off of the net with no RX.
as for control and firmware that should not be to hard, I would guess between me and others we can write the code needed, that is the beauty of open source, anyone can help and improve the project.
as for liability it is open source and the info about making it would come with warning to use at your own risk. there would be no one person designing it and the person using it builds it themselves, even if he does buy parts or kits the final assembly would be done by the user.
no tax, would be the same as making your own wine, there would be no tax, except if you bought parts or supplies, but for sure no med tax would be paid, or need to be paid.
there would be no export to speak of, anyone with a 3d printer could print it, you would buy the parts from any place that sells the right kind of motor and electronic parts, download the software and instruction and 3D models from the net.

this would be a non profit open source project, as for reverse engineering that is legal if it is for your own use or not for profit, in most places.
this should help out the ones that can not afford one, and for the guys in the poor 3rd world countries so they can feel better.
if any reverse engineering is done it could or would be done by a ever changing group, anyone wanting to add to or improve it can if they are able to and are interested in doing so.

as for software, sleepyhead is already done and out there, it is open source as well so anyone could make it work with a new machine if they wanted to and knew how to code. the bulk of the software code is done, just a minor change to it and it will work with a new machine, or the new machine could be made to output data just like any other machine, so it could output data to the mem chip in the resmed data format or any machine data format one wanted to use.

I would doubt the government would get exited about this, even if they did, how would they stop anyone from around the world from working on it and making it a viable unit to use if they so choose to do so?

all I would do is start the ball rolling, others from around the world will help, there would be no one guy to go after and most guys helping make it happen would not even be known about, unless they make their selves known.

open source can be a beautiful thing

(04-03-2014 03:11 PM)justMongo Wrote:  Where will you get the control circuity?
They are RX devices in the US; what about approval?
How do you limit your liability?
Who pays the medical device tax?
If you export, there may be duty.
Some things require export permits.

I've seen simple items restricted under ITAR. International Traffic in Arms Regulations. At one time, the USA deemed computer chips with a speed-power product under a defined curve as weapons of war under ITAR.

If you reverse engineer an existing design, you may be sued for patent infringement. So, you need legal council involved from the start.
04-03-2014 04:41 PM
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zonk Offline

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Post: #6
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
Coffee
(This post was last modified: 04-04-2014 07:18 PM by zonk.)
04-03-2014 04:44 PM
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herbm Offline

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Post: #7
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
When I wrote Software (/firmware) I was referring to the MACHINE software, not to the review and presentation software like SleepyHead.

Clearly we could make the OUTPUT look like what SleepyHead expects from Resmed or some such.

The software (firmware) to run the machine and to score events is non-trivial.

You also have a MUCH reduced population of "interested open source programmers" in that you would not find many with an interest who were not already on CPAP.

Then consider, the machines that are out there are quite good and it would be cheaper to buy a used one if you couldn't afford a new one.

Notice that all of us on good insurance don't pay the full cost in any case -- for a home built machine we would.

So now you are down to mostly those people who a) need a machine and b) need it very cheaply and c) are programmers and d) interested in open source and e) program in something useful the other folks could also use.

That's before even mentioning that you are dealing with a population skewed towards older folks, and most open source is likely written by people from a relatively younger population.

Notice that practically no one is helping JediMark with SleepyHead (there are numerous small bugs and no new version for over a year and that one was a "nightly build" that is marked UNSTABLE -- though it really isn't that bad.)

Do YOU want to take apart an S9 and model all the components?

Not to mention, even as cheap as a 3D printer is today, the one that each person would likely need would be about as expensive as a BRAND NEW S9 Autoset.

Ok, that's a bunch of reasons why it won't work, and when people do that to me it is irritating UNLESS they help me figure out how those can be mitigated.

It seems the best way to motivate enough of the right type of people would be if the machine were BETTER than the best available right now.

Any ideas for how to make a "better S9 autoset"?

Built-in Wifi and/or Bluetooth interface. Run Linux on it so we could have an HTTP web server interface for almost free....

Built in Pulse Ox (I think OP mentioned this.) Maybe USB sensor connectors, and the ability to plug in the EEG modules from that Open Source EEG project....

Sleep data based on a cell phone and blue tooth (likey SleepTime from Azumio)

Maybe it could make coffee when it realizes we have awakened?

Actually we would probably be better off working ON THAT EEG project or figuring out a way to swipe the data direct off the S9 without screwing up the SD Card.

FYI: If you haven't been involved with that discussion: The folks talked *ME* into buying a WiFi SD Card and trying it. Problem is the WiFi SD Card REQUIRES a configuration directory and the STUPID Resmed machine software will NOT accept ANY file or directory (at the root level) on the SD Card. If it sees something extra it refuses to use the card.

Let's solve THAT problem. (I am a pretty good schemer -- that's actually why they pay me the big bucks -- and that one so far has escaped my efforts.)

Sweet Dreams,

HerbM
Sleep study AHI: 49 RDI: 60 -- APAP 10-11 w/AHI: 1.5 avg for 7-days (up due likely to hip replacement recovery)

"We can all breathe together or we will all suffocate alone."
04-03-2014 05:02 PM
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ThatOtherGuy Offline

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Post: #8
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
I have a better idea for you which I was thinking of the other day and happy to give it to you since I have no way of making it happen personally.

Work out a way of using a 3D printer to make customisable face masks. Not sure how you would get the facial mold other than taking a cast or maybe using some laser 3D scanner thingy. But once you have the cast/scan, unless something drastically changes you have it for life. The 3D printer and software can then print a custom mask to which you fit the hose coupler, straps and a universal silicone cushion. A bit simplistic, but you get what I aiming for.
04-03-2014 05:15 PM
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c0reDump Offline

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Post: #9
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
I agree, custom masks done cheaply would be awesome. 3D laser scan of your face and have it build it.
04-03-2014 05:42 PM
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space45 Offline

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Post: #10
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
I did not say it would be easy, but yes the idea is to make a BETTER unit then you can buy, wire and wireless net con for data retrieval and settings, was thinking of basing it on the Arduino controller
I would love to see wireless EEG and bio feed back so you know when and how much rem sleep as well as tell what stages of sleep you get and how long in each one, basically a home sleep lab, but better. no wires going to the machine, just ones going to a small box on your body some where, maybe several small boxes all wireless to keep the wiring comfortable, one for EEG and one for BIO feed back. no one said there could not be a wireless unit on the mask as well for doing some extra sensitive sensing so your not going through the piping. the units could be charged using induction bases so you just put it on a flat unit and it gets charged. also wireless hart and o2 and any other data we may want

if there is new hardware then I am sure it will excite new interest in sleepyhead and it will see new life. if there is no real cheap hardware why would one need to fix or work on the software, but in poorer places where there are what they call rich, they would have computers and could afford a cheap CPAP and they would want to improve the software. India would be a prime place to get this going, they are advanced enough for programmers to be abundant yet poor enough to need this type of unit. we keep adding to the hardware side and they add it to the software.

also most guys have no idea they have apnea, there needs to be a cheap and easy way to build very cheap testers so snorers can test themselves for apnea, something that says their o2 is dropping and some easy way to have a machine reliable test for apnea, have them go the a proper sleep place for conformation and treatment option. there are so many out there that have no idea of this, I had no idea and I was decade suffering with this. how many more is there that need to be helped? I have a friend that snores bad, has for decades, he does not want to bug his doc, is a shut in so going and seeing a sleep testing place is a pain, something he does not see the point in going through unless he knows there is a problem. thing is when your down and dragging your a$$ your not thinking straight and come up with tons of excuses to not do much at all as you have no idea your not sleeping well. you become used to things and they seem normal, you have to admit your not normal and that you need help to do something about it. that and the thought of waring a mask at night does not help one to run out and get tested, ignorance is bliss, tell your self you do not need it and you do not have to deal with the idea of going to bed with some sort of contraption on your head. I know I was not to excited about it, and I was in no hurry at all to join you guys waring a mask and being tied to a machine. even less so after my time with the borrowed machine and a nose mask running around 12 cm H2O. air was going out my month so it was so dry it hurt, never have I been so dry. it was a big dread, but with my own machine and a good full face mask it is not so bad, even at 23.4, almost twice the 12 before. I look forward to going to bed as I do feel much better during the day, even on bad nights I still feel better during the day from before.

as for the firmware, and yes I know exactly what firmware is as I have wrote ton of machine code for micro controllers back in the day when they were new and hot with no interpreters for higher level coding, it was machine code or nothing, there are some great libraries for the Arduino type controllers so it will make it tons easier and faster then one may think as most of the code is written all ready, just need some glue code to stick it together for this application. it is amazing the amount of code available for the Arduino type controllers.

also to help get more programmers into it if one sells the idea of it being needed for 3rd world places it will expand the programmer pool.

one should talk to the guy that wrote sleepyhead and see where he is at and if he can help out with the data format from say resmed so we can output the same format to make it useable in resmeds program. that would be very cool

I do think we need to expand awareness of this problem, how many are on antidepressants when all they need is a good nights sleep, could explain why some go nuts and do stupid thing, not a drug reaction at all but a lack of sleep and the drugs just mask the need for sleep, but it does nothing to fill the need for sleep. lack of sleep can do some wacky things to you, more so if your taking drugs to keep you functioning. your over coming the bodies way of saying stop and get some sleep. not sure but could be, I know my doc offered me antidepressants, said nothing about maybe it was a lack of sleep.
they push pills, real doctoring seems to be a thing of the past, magic pill is all you need now days, pills can cure all your ills. yea right. I feel much better now days, and I was a more extreme case if I go by what I was told by the so called experts.

as for modeling my unit I could, I have every thing needed to do it, solid works, the know how to use it and a new working resmed S9

as for printer cost, they have come way down, some have gone for as little as $300 USD brand new. there are tons to choose from for around the $1000 mark. so yes you could get a used CPAP for $300 or less, but there is a good chance you have a friend with a printer, or buy a already printed CPAP plastic kit for cheap. there are places that offer printing services, send file they will print and send it to you.

as to needing young programmers, most older people have younger kids and they would like to help out, so they may do it for their folks.

as for your wifi mem problem, why not use a Arduino to sim a mem chip and do the wifi as well, or have the Arduino and the resmed be able to access the mem chip and the Arduino will give you the wifi your looking for. there would be a few ways to skin that cat. not that I skin cats, just a expression about here, as in there is more then one way to do things. do not ask me how skinning cats got use in that way as I have no idea, makes no sense to me. as far as I know there was no cats skinned in our past, except the big wild cats like cougars and lynxes and bob cats. maybe that is where it come from. there was lots of that in the past.

I do not have a full and complete grasp of why your playing with a wifi mem chip in your resmed but I would like to talk to you more about it, I may be able to help you with the problem. my take on it is your wanting to network to your resmed and using the wifi mem chip to try and do that. should be a easy do to have a pass through a Arduino to the mem chip so the resmed thinks it is connected to the mem chip but is going through the Arduino, the Arduino can then also tie the mem chip to a network wifi system and give you access to a plain jane mem chip that resmed likes. would that fill your needs?


(04-03-2014 05:02 PM)herbm Wrote:  When I wrote Software (/firmware) I was referring to the MACHINE software, not to the review and presentation software like SleepyHead.

Clearly we could make the OUTPUT look like what SleepyHead expects from Resmed or some such.

The software (firmware) to run the machine and to score events is non-trivial.

You also have a MUCH reduced population of "interested open source programmers" in that you would not find many with an interest who were not already on CPAP.

Then consider, the machines that are out there are quite good and it would be cheaper to buy a used one if you couldn't afford a new one.

Notice that all of us on good insurance don't pay the full cost in any case -- for a home built machine we would.

So now you are down to mostly those people who a) need a machine and b) need it very cheaply and c) are programmers and d) interested in open source and e) program in something useful the other folks could also use.

That's before even mentioning that you are dealing with a population skewed towards older folks, and most open source is likely written by people from a relatively younger population.

Notice that practically no one is helping JediMark with SleepyHead (there are numerous small bugs and no new version for over a year and that one was a "nightly build" that is marked UNSTABLE -- though it really isn't that bad.)

Do YOU want to take apart an S9 and model all the components?

Not to mention, even as cheap as a 3D printer is today, the one that each person would likely need would be about as expensive as a BRAND NEW S9 Autoset.

Ok, that's a bunch of reasons why it won't work, and when people do that to me it is irritating UNLESS they help me figure out how those can be mitigated.

It seems the best way to motivate enough of the right type of people would be if the machine were BETTER than the best available right now.

Any ideas for how to make a "better S9 autoset"?

Built-in Wifi and/or Bluetooth interface. Run Linux on it so we could have an HTTP web server interface for almost free....

Built in Pulse Ox (I think OP mentioned this.) Maybe USB sensor connectors, and the ability to plug in the EEG modules from that Open Source EEG project....

Sleep data based on a cell phone and blue tooth (likey SleepTime from Azumio)

Maybe it could make coffee when it realizes we have awakened?

Actually we would probably be better off working ON THAT EEG project or figuring out a way to swipe the data direct off the S9 without screwing up the SD Card.

FYI: If you haven't been involved with that discussion: The folks talked *ME* into buying a WiFi SD Card and trying it. Problem is the WiFi SD Card REQUIRES a configuration directory and the STUPID Resmed machine software will NOT accept ANY file or directory (at the root level) on the SD Card. If it sees something extra it refuses to use the card.

Let's solve THAT problem. (I am a pretty good schemer -- that's actually why they pay me the big bucks -- and that one so far has escaped my efforts.)
(This post was last modified: 04-03-2014 07:17 PM by space45.)
04-03-2014 06:47 PM
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