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A little help with making something black
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FrankNichols Offline

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Post: #11
RE: A little help with making something black
(09-22-2016 03:53 PM)Crimson Nape Wrote:  Based off your picture of the magnet, the surface finish doesn't have the "tooth" to have normal paint to grip. You need probably to use a catalyzed paint and possibly a primer of the same type. The two brands that come to mind are products used for firearm finishes. They are Cerakote and Duracoat. Or, you could Google "powder coaters near me". Call them and ask how much would they charge to coat the magnet when they plan to make a run on the color (black, satin black, or flat black).

Thanks, from what I understand powder coating is a high temperature fusing process, and these magnets are sensitive to temperatures over 140 F.

I am not a Medical professional and I don't play one on the internet.
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09-22-2016 05:16 PM
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FrankNichols Offline

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Post: #12
RE: A little help with making something black
Here is a look at the first attempt at black - this is black plastic coated from a vendor. In addition to being black it is a little smaller than the Nickel one which is a good thing, since less is more when you are messing with the tone of an expensive cello that some Luthier spent a lot of time making sound good!

[Image: IMG_2330a.jpg]

I am not a Medical professional and I don't play one on the internet.
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09-24-2016 03:37 PM
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FrankNichols Offline

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Post: #13
RE: A little help with making something black
Disgusting all the dirt and rosin that gets on here. I clean it after every practice too - Smile

I am not a Medical professional and I don't play one on the internet.
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09-24-2016 03:38 PM
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0rangebear Offline

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Post: #14
RE: A little help with making something black
(09-22-2016 08:32 AM)FrankNichols Wrote:  I am working on a issue on my Cello (wolf tones).

From one jongleur to another

A wolf tone eliminator needs to be on the offending string, the method your using is going to alter the resonating frequency of the cello itself. You will be shifting the dissonance, inside the wolf interval, not eliminating it.

The eliminator is essentially an attenuator that shifts resonating frequency of the offending string rather than the resonance of the instrument body reducing the reverberation.

I have one on my base

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09-24-2016 04:53 PM
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FrankNichols Offline

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Post: #15
RE: A little help with making something black
(09-24-2016 04:53 PM)0rangebear Wrote:  
(09-22-2016 08:32 AM)FrankNichols Wrote:  I am working on a issue on my Cello (wolf tones).

From one jongleur to another

A wolf tone eliminator needs to be on the offending string, the method your using is going to alter the resonating frequency of the cello itself. You will be shifting the dissonance, inside the wolf interval, not eliminating it.

The eliminator is essentially an attenuator that shifts resonating frequency of the offending string rather than the resonance of the instrument body reducing the reverberation.

I have one on my base

[link removed]

Thanks for the comment. I understand. In fact there is no way, if I understand it correctly to eliminate a wolf tone without permanently changing the resonance of the cello (bass), the best you can hope for is to shift the frequency of the wolf to a tone you don't need to play - ever. The problem with that of course is it will impact (potentially) slides (glissando) as you pass over it.

What I am doing is based on the Krentz Tone Modulator (it was originally called a wolf eliminator and changed since it does a lot more) and/or a German Wolf eliminator called the RezX. The main difference between the two is the Krentz attempt to inject an out of phase vibration to cancel the wolf so it does not need to dampen the resonance as much.

The wolf eliminators on the string between the bridge and the tail piece work - most of the time, but occasionally don't. The also impact the tone (voice) of the instrument, and some cellists refuse to use anything to solve the wolf, feeling anything causes a degradation of the tonal quality, and instead they "play around" the offending note.

I am new, just started learning 4 month ago, and just got a good enough cello to care. I like to understand things more than I should Smile So, I have been doing a lot of research on the topic.

The wolf is a result of dissonance between the air in the cello (bass, viola, violin) and the string vibrations. And is caused by the luthier attempting to get the top to project as much as possible while having a appealing voice. This results in thin spots in the sound board (top) which resonate at specific frequencies.

Anyway, the point is nothing eliminates the wolf except to add mass to the top - typically done by a luthier gluing wood to the inside of the front panel after determining the location causing the problem. Sadly that is permanent and doesn't take into account the wolf moving based on key you are playing in, detuning or tuning to different pitches, and the ultimate evil nemesis of all string instruments - humidity and temperature.

So, A Dr. Krentz came up with the idea of attaching magnetics to the face of the cello and proceeded to create more than he wanted - a way to "tune" the voice of the instrument to balance the strings. In my case, I run a fairly good set of strings, but the C tends to be a little unfocused on my cello, by "tuning" the face of the cello I can brighten it a little and bring it into "tone" with the other three.

I am not a Medical professional and I don't play one on the internet.
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09-24-2016 05:45 PM
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0rangebear Offline

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Post: #16
RE: A little help with making something black
I brought up our conversation at orchestra practice on Sunday. I thought the Cello and Viola players would find it interesting. Two them have tried the F hole Krentz Wolf Eliminator, but no longer use it. One of them has a cork wedged under the C string at the bridge. The other believes she effectively works around the problem by altering her vibrato at the critical location on the string which is typically between Eb and F#.

We all agree that the string eliminators always work; the reason some say they don't is because the location on the string can be very touchy sometimes less than millimeter. They also can be unsightly, but not as much as those electronic tuners that people leave hanging on the instruments

Music theory is complicated. Often people with doctorates in music don't agree. So we amatures end up have these discussions.

It is unusual for a beginner to be into music therapy at the level of wolf note elimination. You must also have an excellent ear to pick up on it so early in the game.

However, the group I play with agrees that using magnets to inject an out of phase vibration to cancel the wolf note in an acoustical instrument whose output is so effected by temperature, humidity and finger pressure, without effecting the harmonic resonance of the overall instrument, is as likely as writing notation for a major piece of music in A#.

My apologies for hijacking you thread, since you were originally asking about ways to get the magnet to match the other black paint on you cello.

Good luck with that.
09-26-2016 11:53 AM
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FrankNichols Offline

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Post: #17
RE: A little help with making something black
(09-26-2016 11:53 AM)0rangebear Wrote:  I brought up our conversation at orchestra practice on Sunday. I thought the Cello and Viola players would find it interesting. Two them have tried the F hole Krentz Wolf Eliminator, but no longer use it. One of them has a cork wedged under the C string at the bridge. The other believes she effectively works around the problem by altering her vibrato at the critical location on the string which is typically between Eb and F#.

We all agree that the string eliminators always work; the reason some say they don't is because the location on the string can be very touchy sometimes less than millimeter. They also can be unsightly, but not as much as those electronic tuners that people leave hanging on the instruments

Music theory is complicated. Often people with doctorates in music don't agree. So we amatures end up have these discussions.

It is unusual for a beginner to be into music therapy at the level of wolf note elimination. You must also have an excellent ear to pick up on it so early in the game.

However, the group I play with agrees that using magnets to inject an out of phase vibration to cancel the wolf note in an acoustical instrument whose output is so effected by temperature, humidity and finger pressure, without effecting the harmonic resonance of the overall instrument, is as likely as writing notation for a major piece of music in A#.

My apologies for hijacking you thread, since you were originally asking about ways to get the magnet to match the other black paint on you cello.

Good luck with that.

OrangeBear,

Thanks for the comment. I have black magnets now. So, that part is done Smile

My experimenting has been nothing short of frustration.

To start with I heard the C string having issues from the beginning with the new Cello and didn't know what a Wolf was. Eventually, I figured out that between E and F# I was getting some warbling (beat frequencies) and that puzzled me since at the time I was playing on one note, so nothing to beat against. A little google foo later and I spent two days reading about Wolf tones. But, I also was able to hear a very bright loud tone on the D string, which I have since learned is just another manifestation of the wolf.

The eliminators on the string alway MOVE the wolf note, they sometimes eliminate it - at least according to what I have read on makers forums and prominent named performers - and my own experience of moving it very small increments and following the wolf around between E flat and F #. At least according to such sources as the lead cellist in the Philadelphia Phil Harmonic who now uses a Krentz and swears it is next to magic, having solved his problems with wolfs that he has fought for over 40 years.

On the other hand it is controversial. Many complain that it changes to voice of the instrument too much, since it is affecting the entire range of the instrument and not just one string.

For myself, I bought a bunch of magnets and a bunch of string wolf eliminators and have been growing more and more frustrated (and still only spent about 20% of the cost of the Krentz!). The Magnets do move the wolf tone (note) also, but in doing so they change the sound quality of all the strings. SO, it is a long process of move the magnet a little and play some scales, move again play some scales, until I think I have a spot that is a good compromise. Sometimes it sounds like I have found a good compromise with them, and the strings feel/sound very balanced - then I do something stupid like take off the magnets to compare the sound, and the instrument comes alive - sigh. Also, I am working in a small room which also affects how my cello sounds. I went to see my Luthier and in his large practice show floor my cello sounded SO MUCH better - sigh. I need to buy a bigger house so I can practice! I don't think momma is buying into that one.

Where I am at, at the moment is I am using a string wolf eliminator on the C string to move the natural wolf note from just a little above F ( +25 cents) down to about half way between F and E (it drifts around based on humidity and temperature). Even with my crappy intonation (I am really new) seldom hits that "note". But, that leaves my C string sounding a little unfocused. So, I put in two small magnets (one inside one outside, they are 1/2 inch diameter and about 6 grams each - the 8 gram magnets were way to much and killed the voice no matter where I put them) and fiddled (sorry for the pun) with them for a couple hours until I found a position that focused my C string without destroying the others.. I hope. Of course, my final test will be to go back to my Luthier (1 hour drive - sigh) and see how it sounds there and listen to him explain why they are a bad idea - he against any messing with the resonance the maker designed into the Cello. Smile

I still think my top 3 strings sound awesome without the magnets. But the C is just kind of hollow or unfocused. And so doesn't balance with the others. And of course in a big room that doesn't happen, then C string sounds great, like at my Luthiers!

I can see this is going to be a fun journey!

I am not a Medical professional and I don't play one on the internet.
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(This post was last modified: 09-26-2016 12:42 PM by FrankNichols.)
09-26-2016 12:36 PM
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0rangebear Offline

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Post: #18
RE: A little help with making something black
Music is great hobby, it will certainly gobble up all your free time.
Trying to find that perfect combination of tone timbre quite often leads to building your own instrument, or buying many. I have whole collection of 7 string guitars for this very reason

You sound to me like someone who could find an old cello in a estate sale, take it apart, and build you own. Have you considered playing with others or do you just practice on your own.
09-26-2016 03:33 PM
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FrankNichols Offline

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Post: #19
RE: A little help with making something black
(09-26-2016 03:33 PM)0rangebear Wrote:  Music is great hobby, it will certainly gobble up all your free time.
Trying to find that perfect combination of tone timbre quite often leads to building your own instrument, or buying many. I have whole collection of 7 string guitars for this very reason

You sound to me like someone who could find an old cello in a estate sale, take it apart, and build you own. Have you considered playing with others or do you just practice on your own.

I am all thumbs, but I would buy any old cellos I found in auctions or garage sales and take them to my luthier to fix up - he is great, sadly he only makes violins, so he had to sell me one from another maker.

I have been playing now for 4 months - I can barely figure out which end of the cello is supposed to be pointing up!.

I am teaching myself, since I am a major curmudgeon know-it-all and I don't believe any teacher could tolerate me. My "plan" is to take about 12 to 18 months to get far enough along to not embarrass myself too much, then to start looking for a beginners group - preferably a quartet to play with.

I am not a Medical professional and I don't play one on the internet.
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09-26-2016 03:42 PM
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0rangebear Offline

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Post: #20
RE: A little help with making something black
I am a bit of a curmudgeon myself but playing in a group is rewarding, you will learn more about syncopations and harmony in a group that you can alone. However. but you do have to recognize that the people that disagree with you may not be wrong, how ever unlikely that may be. Big Grin: laugh-a-lot:


I teach a seniors Ukulele class on once a week that is full of folks that never played an instrument before. I am the youngest person in the room as their ages are 66-96. Therefore, I have some experience with teacher tolerance of the curmudgeonly.
09-27-2016 01:30 PM
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