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AirFit P10 vent blocked?
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PaytonA Offline
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Machine: ResMed S9 VPAP Auto
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Sex: Male
Location: Orange County,California

Post: #131
RE: AirFit P10 vent blocked?
(07-27-2015 01:09 AM)OpineCone Wrote:  Please re-read this thread. The photograph that was posted was not good evidence of a solid coating at all. Both of my own frames look exactly like the posted photograph and yet do not actually have solid coatings - it just looks like they do. And they both work perfectly.

However, I am sure that something is causing P10 blockages because I have personally experienced one. When it happened to me, examination of the vents with a 14x loupe magnifier showed that the appearance of a solid coating was an illusion, and the real culprit was water trapped in the micromesh. If you look back far enough in this thread you will find a detailed report of the incident.

There are two likely sources of water that gets trapped in the P10 vents: 1. condensation, and 2. attempts to clean the frame and vents. Personally, I have completely stopped washing my frame and vents, and done everything I can think of to prevent condensation forming in or near the vents or flowing towards the vents through the supply tubing. My P10 now works perfectly every night, without fail.

For those of you still having difficulties with the P10, here are some tips for keeping moisture out of the vents:

1. Preheat the reservoir and large tubing and allow the heated air to flow for a few minutes before connecting the tubing to the P10.

2. Arrange the large tubing so that it slopes upwards from your CPAP machine to your bed. This will cause any water that condenses in the sloping part of the large tubing to flow back towards the CPAP machine.

3. If you sleep in a cool bedroom, as I do, which may encourage water to condense in the large tubing, look for ways to insulate the part of the tubing that runs horizontally on top of your bed. Personally I sleep on two real down pillows, with the large tubing arranged in an S shape under the bottom pillow and emerging at the head of the bed, close to the top of my head. The down pillows are thick enough that I cannot feel the tubing underneath them, and they do a great job of protecting the tubing from cool night air.

4. Never wash your frame and vents unless you absolutely have to. If you do wash them, allow plenty of time for water trapped in the micromesh to gradually evaporate. Air movement from a fan, and slight warming of the vents may help. However, attempting to blow air through the vents will accomplish nothing because the vents will remain totally blocked until the water evaporates. If you have difficulty visualizing that, it's rather like drying a sponge, except you can at least squeeze a sponge to remove some of the trapped water. With the vents, there is no other method available than the frustratingly slow process of evaporation.

I hope these suggestions help at least some of you to achieve more successful results.

You are right. I seem to be having memory farts. Your experimentation and write-up were great.

It has been suggested in this thread that vent plugging with the P10 might be a figment of someone's imagination and that is what I was trying to debunk.

Best Regards,

PaytonA
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2015 10:01 AM by PaytonA.)
07-27-2015 09:59 AM
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BadGoodDeb Offline

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Machine: ResMed Airsense 10 autoset
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: AirFit P10 for Her
Humidifier: no
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CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: New to AirSense 10 and AirFit P10, but 4 years on prev unit

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Location: Chicago outskirts (Aurora, IL)

Post: #132
RE: AirFit P10 vent blocked?
(A) I'm reporting that vinegar may be helpful. After soaking 10 hours in water with Dawn dish soap, 24 hrs of drying didn't help. I had to go out to buy vinegar; then soaked it 3 hrs in vinegar. I then blew OUT through it hard, like blowing up a balloon. It didn't seem to help, so I set it aside in disgust. 48 hours later I looked at it again, not expecting anything. It is now useable again!
Some of this is due to the holes I've poked, but the mesh is really open again too. It's not just the holes. I think the vinegar dissolved something, and 2 days has allowed it to dry.

(B) re What causes this: Mine got this way about 3 weeks after I got it. I obediently washed it once a week. In hindsight, I think that was a mistake. In future, I will take the cloth straps off and hot water wash them separately (to re-shrink them back to shape) but NOT wash the frame at all. It doesn't touch me; why should I wash it? Unless it proves to need washing later.

© After the second washing of my brand new mask (see section B) I also tried out the humidifier, using distilled water. That should not have added any condensates. But the mesh clogged up 4 days after starting to use humidity. So I'm now leery of trying it again, since I've spent 4 years with no humidity before (previous machine kept drowning me) and never missed it. So: no humidity for me, either. I've bought the replacement side panel for the machine; it makes it a bit smaller for travelling (bonus!) and I have a spare section in the carry case to put other medical stuff into.

(D) If it is ONLY water in the mesh, you'd think 2 months of using it in this clogged state (uncomfortably using it) would have run enough forced pressurized air through the mesh to finally dry it out and clear the clog. I didn't realize it was clogged, but several days after "something changed" I switched to APAP. I changed from CPAP 8 to APAP 7.8-10 because I *couldn't breathe* and wanted something to fix it. Raising the pressure up to 10 was enough to somewhat compensate, but it wasn't ideal.
It kept giving me sinus issues for two months, that I hadn't had for years. When I switched back to my Swift LT mask last week, it felt much better, so I went back to CPAP 8.

Now that the Vinegar has cleared the clog, I used the AirFit P10 again last night. It *is* a very nice mask, when it's working right! I hope it continues to work!
07-27-2015 12:17 PM
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OpineCone Offline

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Joined: Feb 2015

Machine: ResMed S9 Auto
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed AirFit P10 Large
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CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Mask straps spread widely to fit large head, worn under PureSom Ruby chinstrap for stability

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Location: Massachusetts USA

Post: #133
RE: AirFit P10 vent blocked?
(07-27-2015 07:27 AM)OpalRose Wrote:  Some of you do seem to have this issue of a blocked vent. I appreciate OpineCone's original post and the images he showed us, but simply do not agree with advice to never wash the frame! This may be what has got some of you a blocked vent to begin with.

1. I have not posted any images at all in this thread, but I have provided a lot of detailed descriptions of my experiences, tests, reasoning and conclusions. To receive appreciation now for my non-existent images is a bit discouraging!

2. I inspect my P10 pillows, frame and vents every morning and occasionally inspect the vents with a 14x magnifier. The only contamination I have ever observed has been near the tips of the pillows, easily removed by a daily wash. The only blockage I have ever experienced was caused by water trapped in the vents, water which I observed through my 14x magnifier and then evaporated with a gentle breeze of warm air for an hour or so, restoring the normal function of the P10. I stand by my recommendation to avoid washing the P10 frame and vents because I believe it causes more trouble than it avoids.
07-27-2015 01:38 PM
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OpalRose Offline

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Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto 560 with A Flex
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Other Comments: Started CPAP Therapy October 23, 2014

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Location: Northeast Ohio, USA

Post: #134
RE: AirFit P10 vent blocked?
OpineCone,
My sincere apologies for giving you credit for the pics of the blocked P10 vents.
So why are you discouraged??? I admit my error!
However, you certainly did give a detailed history of your experiences with the P10 Mask, which is appreciated.

The credit for the images goes to the original poster of this thread. My apologies to the OP also!

OpalRose
07-27-2015 06:56 PM
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alby_c Offline

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Machine: resmed s9 autoset
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: Resmed Airfit P10
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Sex: Male
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Post: #135
RE: AirFit P10 vent blocked?
(07-27-2015 07:27 AM)OpalRose Wrote:  Please do not take this as a criticism, because don't mean it that way, but alby_c......accumulated oils I understand, but mucus and dirt???

Smile
No offense taken.
Sometimes I sneeze with the mask on. I try not to, but it happens.
Dirt and other contaminants - The mask does rub against the pillow - I am sure dander and other stuff falls out of my scalp, and room dust etc can get there, even though we do replace/wash the bedding regularly, but not every night.

I am just looking at any thing that may be causing the issues.
07-30-2015 08:02 PM
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Sleeprider Offline
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Machine: Resmed Aircurve 10 Vauto
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Post: #136
RE: AirFit P10 vent blocked?
Still waiting for a single person to post the leak rate from a clogged P10.

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07-30-2015 09:17 PM
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MobileBasset Offline

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Post: #137
RE: AirFit P10 vent blocked?
I realize from reading many threads on this board that there are those who feel they rarely/never need to clean their mask frame/cushion/hose (.....fill in the blank) because there are no bad things in the air they breath and, even if there are, they are their own bad things.

With respect to the P10 and whether mask frames need to be washed:
Our bodies are made up of the different kinds of cells we all learned about in biology and BILLIONS of bacteria. These bacteria help cell metabolic activity, the bodies digestion, etc but also are pathological when overgrown or relocated to inappropriate areas of the body. For example Ecoli may be fine in the colon but in the lungs not so much. These bacteria, along with cell metabolism, create waste and toxins that need to be removed. Our respiratory systems generate constantly moving mucous to clean the air exchange surfaces and passages. If you think all this activity doesn't end up with your humid exhalations layering dead cells, live and dead bacteria, waste products, and mucous on your mask cushions, frame, vent, and hose you are mistaken.

And that is in addition to the dust, dust mites, human and animal dander and oils, air fresheners, etc that settle on everything even when you are not using the mask. Wipe a damp tissue along the blinds on your bedroom window. That is what settles on your mask when it is just laying there.
You may replace your mask frequently enough to avoid issues, or you may be out of the house working all day and have no pets and no other humans in the house or you may be lucky, but your mask is definitely picking up grunge.

This thread leads me to believe that the P10 mesh design/manufacture/quality control may cause it to be sensitive to some or all of these deposits and sometimes become obstructed enough to degrade performance.

I don't know if the cleaning methods discussed here are helping or hurting the obstruction issue but IMHO any mask that cannot be effectively and frequently washed is not the best choice.

The issue of whether pathogens can be harbored/cultured/transferred via an XPAP system that is not frequently washed is another topic. I bet you can guess what my opinion is.

if you can't decide then you don't have enough data.
07-30-2015 10:07 PM
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OpineCone Offline

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Mask Make & Model: ResMed AirFit P10 Large
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CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Mask straps spread widely to fit large head, worn under PureSom Ruby chinstrap for stability

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Location: Massachusetts USA

Post: #138
RE: AirFit P10 vent blocked?
(07-27-2015 09:15 AM)Sleeprider Wrote:  I purchased the P10 and first put it into use in early January. Comparing base leak rate from January to July shows no change for me. If someone with a clogged P10 could do a similar comparison then we'd have a a better quantitative ideal of the problem.

(07-30-2015 09:17 PM)Sleeprider Wrote:  Still waiting for a single person to post the leak rate from a clogged P10.

I am married. Am I therefore disqualified from responding?

Actually, I don't know how to respond because my pillows blockage did not develop gradually. One night everything worked fine, and at the start of the next night there was no detectable air flow through the filters. SleepyHead shows I struggled with the problem for 8 minutes and then gave up for 2 1/2 hours while I diagnosed and fixed it, after which the P10 behaved normally again. During those 8 minutes, SleepyHead shows a zero leak rate. Is there any other information you might find useful?
08-02-2015 02:30 PM
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AshSF Offline

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Machine: PRS1 D560TS
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Mask Make & Model: ResMed P10, Bkup: Airfit F10 & Quattro Air
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Post: #139
RE: AirFit P10 vent blocked?
(08-02-2015 02:30 PM)OpineCone Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:15 AM)Sleeprider Wrote:  I purchased the P10 and first put it into use in early January. Comparing base leak rate from January to July shows no change for me. If someone with a clogged P10 could do a similar comparison then we'd have a a better quantitative ideal of the problem.

(07-30-2015 09:17 PM)Sleeprider Wrote:  Still waiting for a single person to post the leak rate from a clogged P10.

I am married. Am I therefore disqualified from responding?

Actually, I don't know how to respond because my pillows blockage did not develop gradually. One night everything worked fine, and at the start of the next night there was no detectable air flow through the filters. SleepyHead shows I struggled with the problem for 8 minutes and then gave up for 2 1/2 hours while I diagnosed and fixed it, after which the P10 behaved normally again. During those 8 minutes, SleepyHead shows a zero leak rate. Is there any other information you might find useful?

OC: your machine does NOT report 'intentional leak rate' (also called designed venting rate which every mask has to make sure there is no rebreathing of co2), so you can't say lookin at the S9 data if the mask is venting at all or not. Only respironics machines report a metric called the 'total leak rate' which is vent rate + unintentional leak rate.

Consequently, a reading of zero on S9 leak rate may mean that your mask sealed perfectly during that few minutes you had it on.
(This post was last modified: 08-02-2015 03:08 PM by AshSF.)
08-02-2015 03:05 PM
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OpineCone Offline

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Posts: 46
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Machine: ResMed S9 Auto
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed AirFit P10 Large
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CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Mask straps spread widely to fit large head, worn under PureSom Ruby chinstrap for stability

Sex: Male
Location: Massachusetts USA

Post: #140
RE: AirFit P10 vent blocked?
(08-02-2015 03:05 PM)AshSF Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 02:30 PM)OpineCone Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:15 AM)Sleeprider Wrote:  I purchased the P10 and first put it into use in early January. Comparing base leak rate from January to July shows no change for me. If someone with a clogged P10 could do a similar comparison then we'd have a a better quantitative ideal of the problem.

(07-30-2015 09:17 PM)Sleeprider Wrote:  Still waiting for a single person to post the leak rate from a clogged P10.

Actually, I don't know how to respond because my pillows blockage did not develop gradually. One night everything worked fine, and at the start of the next night there was no detectable air flow through the filters. SleepyHead shows I struggled with the problem for 8 minutes and then gave up for 2 1/2 hours while I diagnosed and fixed it, after which the P10 behaved normally again. During those 8 minutes, SleepyHead shows a zero leak rate. Is there any other information you might find useful?

OC: your machine does NOT report 'intentional leak rate' (also called designed venting rate which every mask has to make sure there is no rebreathing of co2), so you can't say lookin at the S9 data if the mask is venting at all or not. Only respironics machines report a metric called the 'total leak rate' which is vent rate + unintentional leak rate.

Consequently, a reading of zero on S9 leak rate may mean that your mask sealed perfectly during that few minutes you had it on.

AshSF, now you have me really confused. First, let me thank you for educating me on the fact that my machine does not display total leak rate. But surely the issue is not whether my mask sealed perfectly, it is a matter of confirming that the machine readings are consistent with having blocked filters. Or am I missing something?
08-02-2015 04:22 PM
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