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Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
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Sleeprider Offline
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Machine: Resmed Aircurve 10 Vauto
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
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Location: Where they make Respironics

Post: #21
RE: Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
(01-13-2016 01:45 PM)Possum Wrote:  I would like to try the recommended heated hose, but I don't like the idea of it having its own power supply. That's just more equipment to tote around and plug in.

I agree, and that's probably the only reason I moved away from it. Especially in a hotel room where plugs are scarce it can be a real nuisance. However, your original concern was for rain-out at home due to your unheated home. For travel, I would just take a regular hose, or the manufacturer heated hose.

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01-13-2016 02:32 PM
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bluemom51 Offline

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Machine: Resmed S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: Breeze
Humidifier: Rested S9 Autosett
CPAP Pressure: 10-18
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

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Location: Dallas Metroplex

Post: #22
RE: Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
(01-06-2016 12:33 PM)Possum Wrote:  Airsense Autoset experts:

So, this is my first winter of therapy, and I cannot seem to get rid of persistent rainout. I have my humidifer set between 5-6, ClimateLine heated hose maxed out at 86 deg F, and bedroom temperature is probably in the high 50s to low 60s and usually dry as a bone, as I live in a generally arid climate. I have tried using the Auto humidifier setting but it is too dry.

I even have a ResMed wrap AND a Pad-a-Cheek fleece cover on the ClimateLine hose (which, by the way, makes it weigh about 5 lbs), AND I have a cozy on the P10 mask hose. Yet, on most nights I still wake up with moisture in the mask, blocking the diffuser exhalation ports and causing me to suffocate on CO2. UGH!

Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm super frustrated

I wish I could find a solution! - I have fought nightly battles with my Airsense 10 for Her and the humidity. I am not familiar with your mask, but the ResMed Tech said with my Breeze nasal pillows mask, I would have to use Duct Tape (literally) and cover every square inch of the piece that holds the pillows, and he said I would still probably be sprayed with water and feel like I was drowning. (nice......). I do have the heated hose and all parts of the hose covered, but still cannot use it with my mask because it will shove water down my throat with great force and I wake up gagging and choking. I try the manual settings and cannot achieve a balance - 2 is too low and 3 is a small stream. I debate every morning whether to launch a big screaming fit (#3) at the supplier/ResMed - both have said they don't care and because they will not test it with the mask I use, they say the machine "works". The pressure does work, but the humidity issues with this machine with many of the masks (particularly non-ResMed) are just horrible. It just makes me so upset that this is medical device that does not work in some instances as promised and NO ONE cares at all. Unbelievable. Right now I have gone back to the S9 Autoset to take a break from the great flood. ResMed said they INTENTIONALLY increased the humidity with the Airsense 10 over the S9 and I can testify that that is the truest statement I have heard in a long time.
01-17-2016 09:20 PM
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Sleeprider Offline
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Posts: 3,350
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Machine: Resmed Aircurve 10 Vauto
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: Resmed Airfit P10
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CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead EncoreBasic

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Location: Where they make Respironics

Post: #23
RE: Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
Bluemom51, be sure your machine is placed at a lower elevation than your mask so any condensed water runs back to the machine humidifier. For you to get the quantity of water you describe, something has to be badly wrong. Do not overfill the humidification chamber, and turn down the humidity level, or use the automatic climate control. Verify the climateline tubing is set to on.

If you have any questions on setting up your machine, and humidity settings, be sure to order the Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset clinical manual from the forum. http://www.apneaboard.com/adjust-cpap-pr...tup-manual

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01-18-2016 10:07 AM
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bluemom51 Offline

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Machine: Resmed S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: Breeze
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Location: Dallas Metroplex

Post: #24
RE: Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
(01-18-2016 10:07 AM)Sleeprider Wrote:  Bluemom51, be sure your machine is placed at a lower elevation than your mask so any condensed water runs back to the machine humidifier. For you to get the quantity of water you describe, something has to be badly wrong. Do not overfill the humidification chamber, and turn down the humidity level, or use the automatic climate control. Verify the climateline tubing is set to on.

If you have any questions on setting up your machine, and humidity settings, be sure to order the Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset clinical manual from the forum. http://www.apneaboard.com/adjust-cpap-pr...tup-manual

The thing that is seriously wrong is that you cannot properly use the Airsense 10 with the Breeze Mask or various other non-ResMed masks. It's the auto climate control that results in the great flood spraying in your face and all over the bed experience. On manual, 2 is too low and 3 is a small stream so no help there. Machine is lower and tub is not over filled. It's not what I am doing - it's the Airsense 10 problem (when used with non-ResMed masks) as confirmed by the ResMed tech. He literally starting laughing when I told him I use the Breeze mask and when he could finally stop laughing, he said "there's your problem"!!! - he said "you will need a Lot of duct tape!" - ha ha ha!!! I have used an S9 Autoset for years with auto climate control - works perfectly - not a single issue. I have tried unsuccessfully so far at least 8 other masks and I can't fall asleep with any of them. Maybe I should bronze the thing and use it as a paperweight.
01-18-2016 11:07 AM
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PaytonA Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
Bluemom51,

There are many people on this forum who use A Resmed CPAP with a non Resmed mask very successfully and I am one of them. I use both a Resmed mask and a Fisher and Paykel mask.

You need to quit thinking about this problem as a CPAP manufacturer problem and think about it as a system problem. Why did you replace your S9 autoset? Did your S9 have a Climateline heated hose? What position are you laying in when you get sprayed? Does it happen within 10 minutes of starting CPAP or later on? How much later on? On manual what makes 2 too low?

One thing that it would be helpful to know is the temperature of the room that you sleep in.

In general, the only way for a CPAP to "spray" water at you is for the water to build up in a low section of the hose until it blocks the hose. Then the pressure builds up behind the water dam and blasts the water out of the way. If this occurs reasonably close to the mask, you will get sprayed.

Having the machine lower than the mask is not a sufficient condition to ensure that any condensation that occurs in the hose drains back into the tank. You need to have at least the first 3 feet of hose continually rising with no dips where water might collect.

I would make a cozy for the short hose that comes with the mask and also for the plastic piece that the pillows fit into. If that was not sufficient, I would switch the long hose out to a non-heated hose making sure that I have at least 3 feet of good drainback and I might even forego a cozy on the long hose.

Best Regards,

PaytonA
01-18-2016 12:30 PM
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bluemom51 Offline

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Machine: Resmed S9 Autoset
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Post: #26
RE: Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
(01-18-2016 12:30 PM)PaytonA Wrote:  Bluemom51,

There are many people on this forum who use A Resmed CPAP with a non Resmed mask very successfully and I am one of them. I use both a Resmed mask and a Fisher and Paykel mask.

You need to quit thinking about this problem as a CPAP manufacturer problem and think about it as a system problem. Why did you replace your S9 autoset? Did your S9 have a Climateline heated hose? What position are you laying in when you get sprayed? Does it happen within 10 minutes of starting CPAP or later on? How much later on? On manual what makes 2 too low?

One thing that it would be helpful to know is the temperature of the room that you sleep in.

In general, the only way for a CPAP to "spray" water at you is for the water to build up in a low section of the hose until it blocks the hose. Then the pressure builds up behind the water dam and blasts the water out of the way. If this occurs reasonably close to the mask, you will get sprayed.

Having the machine lower than the mask is not a sufficient condition to ensure that any condensation that occurs in the hose drains back into the tank. You need to have at least the first 3 feet of hose continually rising with no dips where water might collect.

I would make a cozy for the short hose that comes with the mask and also for the plastic piece that the pillows fit into. If that was not sufficient, I would switch the long hose out to a non-heated hose making sure that I have at least 3 feet of good drainback and I might even forego a cozy on the long hose.

Best Regards,

PaytonA

S9 does have a heated hose and works perfectly - no rainout ever. Hose goes up on headboard and back down as used with the S9. There is a hose cover on the hose and a tiny cover on the hose part of the mask. I have tried both the heated and non-heated hoses. The only thing I haven't tried yet is the duct tape recommended by the tech or a tiny cloth cover that you mention for the piece that holds the pillows. I guess I will try that before bronzing the machine.

The spraying would not start right away - maybe a couple of hours in. Room is 68 degrees. Everything is identical to the way the S9 was used - but because of the increased humidity purposefully designed into the Airsense 10, it's just too much for the Auto Climate to work with the Breeze mask properly - this is per the Tech Dept at ResMed. And using the manual settings is a guessing game - 2 feels too dry and 3 is moderate rainout. I don't know why - wish there was a 2.5 - but there again, it depends on the day's humidity so you have to guess what will work each day. That's why I wished the Climate control heated hose would work.

I purchased the Airsense 10 because my S9 is getting older and I liked the size and look of it and I stupidly thought it would work the same. Again, as per ResMed, in regards to humidity, they are Not the same. They said a person would have the most problems trying to use a Breeze mask with an Airsense !0 versus any other mask. Just the way it is, they said. So actually, it is a manufacturer's "problem" in regards to the mask I choose to use and the manufacturer admitted that very openly and honestly (with sadly, much laughter and giggling). I realize I would have better luck with a different mask, but cannot yet find one that will work for me. I will continue trying.
01-18-2016 12:59 PM
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pholynyk Offline

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Post: #27
RE: Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
Bluemon51, I wonder if you have tried adjusting the temperature of the air? As I recall, that has to be enabled in the Clinician's menu - see the link at the top to CPAP Setup Manuals if you need instructions.
I have a similar problem with my Wisp, although the shape of that mask usually prevents the moisture from getting into my nostrils (I shake it out each morning). The air we exhale is both warmer and moister than what we inhale, so it condenses when it hits the external mask and hose. In the Breeze, I suspect that it can collect in the hose or the pillow chamber. If you are side sleeping, it is highly likely that the loop from nose to forehead dips down, then up over the head. If that's the case, then warmer air should warm the tube ans mask, thus reducing the condensation. It's worth a try, at least.

PS I distrust anybody who says you must match brands or things won't work. I'm sort of an Open Source/Open Hardware kind of guy.
01-18-2016 03:44 PM
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whmagill Offline

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Post: #28
RE: Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
(01-06-2016 04:42 PM)surferdude2 Wrote:  I suggest keeping the bedroom warmer until you find something better.

edit: Verify that the condensation is actually happening inside the hose as opposed to inside the mask. When you exhale, the RH inside the mask approaches 100%. Mask condensation can happen even though the hose is delivering rain free air. That's more of an issue with FF masks but can also be a problem with other masks.
This is an important point!

Your exhaled air is going to be close to 98.6 degrees - hitting a mask which is 50-60 degrees is going to generate condensation inside the mask.

I just switched from nasal pillows to a Full Face mask (Resmed Mirage Quatro) and immediately noticed that the inside of the mask was wet, and my "leaks" across my face were wet. Same Humidification settings and hose, just the mask changed.

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01-18-2016 04:03 PM
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bluemom51 Offline

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Machine: Resmed S9 Autoset
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Post: #29
RE: Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
(01-18-2016 03:44 PM)pholynyk Wrote:  Bluemon51, I wonder if you have tried adjusting the temperature of the air? As I recall, that has to be enabled in the Clinician's menu - see the link at the top to CPAP Setup Manuals if you need instructions.
I have a similar problem with my Wisp, although the shape of that mask usually prevents the moisture from getting into my nostrils (I shake it out each morning). The air we exhale is both warmer and moister than what we inhale, so it condenses when it hits the external mask and hose. In the Breeze, I suspect that it can collect in the hose or the pillow chamber. If you are side sleeping, it is highly likely that the loop from nose to forehead dips down, then up over the head. If that's the case, then warmer air should warm the tube ans mask, thus reducing the condensation. It's worth a try, at least.

PS I distrust anybody who says you must match brands or things won't work. I'm sort of an Open Source/Open Hardware kind of guy.

I agree - in my opinion it is wrong to sell a machine and not Clearly indicate that you may have a problem with, or be unable to use certain masks. When I asked Why they had designed and built increased humidity into the Airsense 10 they just said they "decided" to do it. I hope it wasn't intentional in the sense that people would find it harder to use a non-ResMed mask - especially when it is sold without that disclosure. They say they "recommend" using a ResMed mask, but in my case it was deceitful advertising in not saying "You may Not be able to use this machine with some non-ResMed masks due to the humidity increases we have built into this machine" or something similar. A company can do what they want, but they need to inform and disclose - not wait until some suffering and upset CPAP user calls and then laugh their heads off that I am trying to use the machine with a Breeze mask. That is so Wrong is so many ways.

I have not tried adjusting the temperature of the air, and I do have the Clinician's manual - I will try that tonight. I find it interesting that you are also shaking water out of your mask even though your's does not spray like a shower head. With the S9 I Never had to shake water out of the mask and it was set on Auto Climate control. That just reinforces my opinion that ResMed put way too much humidity in the Airsense 10 and I'm finding numerous comments online that indicates that as well.

Another thing I thought of last night when I couldn't sleep - people who do not use CPAP are directly breathing 68 degree air at night (in my house). These machines might be at 78-80 or whatever. Something just struck me as odd about this and what problems or issues this might cause. Also why shouldn't we be trying to get the air in the CPAP closer to what we would be breathing if we didn't use one? I could never fall asleep in an 80 degree bedroom, but I'm blowing that hot air into my lungs at great force. It just seems illogical - I know that's the way it is, but doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks so much for your helpful tips - I will keep trying. Will work on temperature experiments and tape or wrap the nosepiece that holds the pillows - maybe I can reduce my flooding to just periodic shaking out of the water (irritates me like crazy that I have to wake up and do that). Sure beats waking up, lifting the mask, and watching the whole room being sprayed with water - with great force!

One last question - have you ever noticed that the pressure on your Airsense sometimes gets a little random? I get some strange graphs on Sleephead on a few nights showing unusual pressure changes, whereas everything is very consistent with the S9. Also the average pressure on the Airsense 10 is over 13 and the average on the S9 is about 11 - same person, same room, same mask, same everything except the machine. I have sent the machine back and the seller said it was "fine" - they only tested it for a couple of hours and not with a Breeze mask, of course.
01-18-2016 04:17 PM
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pholynyk Offline

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Post: #30
RE: Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
On you last question about pressures. I note that you have the Autoset for Her. It does have different algorithms than the S9, especially if you are using the 'For Her' setting. I have noticed that pressure changes correlate well with changes in my Flow Limitations graph. I wonder if water collecting in the tube also acts like a flow limitation - depending on how much water collects, of course. That's all just guessing on my part, of course.
01-18-2016 05:08 PM
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