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Airsense Autoset - persistent rainout issue
#31
(01-18-2016, 05:08 PM)pholynyk Wrote: On you last question about pressures. I note that you have the Autoset for Her. It does have different algorithms than the S9, especially if you are using the 'For Her' setting. I have noticed that pressure changes correlate well with changes in my Flow Limitations graph. I wonder if water collecting in the tube also acts like a flow limitation - depending on how much water collects, of course. That's all just guessing on my part, of course.

I tried the For Her setting and it was weird for me. I use just the "regular" autosetting. The For Her is a different algorithm, but the tech told me the "regular" one is pretty much the same on the A10 as the S9. Since I could not breath properly with the "for her" setting, I don't know if it would have a different effect on the rainout, but makes sense that it might a little bit. What most people have trouble believing, is that I am not experiencing "rainout" - I know what that is. This ranges from a small stream with water running all down my face and into my nose etc. to a spraying of water covering the bed and the whole room when you lift the mask a little bit from your face. So my issues are so pronounced that small adjustments don't come close to improving the situation.

But your point would certainly apply to the weird pressure changes I have seen - I did not keep a journal and compare the nights of the great floods with the resulting data. Good point - I'm sure excess water would effect pressures needed in a auto setting, and thus the higher pressures seen with the Airsense 10.
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#32
(01-18-2016, 12:59 PM)bluemom51 Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 12:30 PM)PaytonA Wrote: Bluemom51,

There are many people on this forum who use A Resmed CPAP with a non Resmed mask very successfully and I am one of them. I use both a Resmed mask and a Fisher and Paykel mask.

You need to quit thinking about this problem as a CPAP manufacturer problem and think about it as a system problem. Why did you replace your S9 autoset? Did your S9 have a Climateline heated hose? What position are you laying in when you get sprayed? Does it happen within 10 minutes of starting CPAP or later on? How much later on? On manual what makes 2 too low?

One thing that it would be helpful to know is the temperature of the room that you sleep in.

In general, the only way for a CPAP to "spray" water at you is for the water to build up in a low section of the hose until it blocks the hose. Then the pressure builds up behind the water dam and blasts the water out of the way. If this occurs reasonably close to the mask, you will get sprayed.

Having the machine lower than the mask is not a sufficient condition to ensure that any condensation that occurs in the hose drains back into the tank. You need to have at least the first 3 feet of hose continually rising with no dips where water might collect.

I would make a cozy for the short hose that comes with the mask and also for the plastic piece that the pillows fit into. If that was not sufficient, I would switch the long hose out to a non-heated hose making sure that I have at least 3 feet of good drainback and I might even forego a cozy on the long hose.

Best Regards,

PaytonA

S9 does have a heated hose and works perfectly - no rainout ever. Hose goes up on headboard and back down as used with the S9. There is a hose cover on the hose and a tiny cover on the hose part of the mask. I have tried both the heated and non-heated hoses. The only thing I haven't tried yet is the duct tape recommended by the tech or a tiny cloth cover that you mention for the piece that holds the pillows. I guess I will try that before bronzing the machine.

The spraying would not start right away - maybe a couple of hours in. Room is 68 degrees. Everything is identical to the way the S9 was used - but because of the increased humidity purposefully designed into the Airsense 10, it's just too much for the Auto Climate to work with the Breeze mask properly - this is per the Tech Dept at ResMed. And using the manual settings is a guessing game - 2 feels too dry and 3 is moderate rainout. I don't know why - wish there was a 2.5 - but there again, it depends on the day's humidity so you have to guess what will work each day. That's why I wished the Climate control heated hose would work.

I purchased the Airsense 10 because my S9 is getting older and I liked the size and look of it and I stupidly thought it would work the same. Again, as per ResMed, in regards to humidity, they are Not the same. They said a person would have the most problems trying to use a Breeze mask with an Airsense !0 versus any other mask. Just the way it is, they said. So actually, it is a manufacturer's "problem" in regards to the mask I choose to use and the manufacturer admitted that very openly and honestly (with sadly, much laughter and giggling). I realize I would have better luck with a different mask, but cannot yet find one that will work for me. I will continue trying.

Frankly, I think that the laughter and giggling is very unprofessional and rather insulting and I do not blame you one bit for being incensed about that.

The fact that it has a humidity problem with one mask out of all the masks and at a few settings out of all the possibilities does not make the Airsense 10 at fault. If you had researched the Airsense 10 with the Climateline hose, you would have known that the auto mode for this machine is set to 85% RH instead of the 80% RH setting designed into the S9 Climateline in auto mode. Of course, even knowing that does not tell you how it will react with your mask. Resmed has stated that the 85% RH was a mistake, probably because many people are having more difficulty with rainout. Yes, I do know the difference between rainout and what you are experiencing and I can see the design features of the Breeze mask that cause that difference. One of the problems is the thermal conductivity of the plastic pillow holder.

I am surprised to hear that you have not tried turning the temperature up on your climateline hose. That would have been one of the first things that I would have tried and I would suggest that you give it a try along with your covering for the short hose and trying to find something to insulate the plastic pillow holder. Duct tape might not be a bad way to go especially if you put on several layers possibly with some old wool material between layers.

Why is the manual setting of 2 too low for you? Is it too drying?

Best Regards,

PaytonA
Post Reply Post Reply
#33
(01-18-2016, 10:46 PM)PaytonA Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 12:59 PM)bluemom51 Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 12:30 PM)PaytonA Wrote: Bluemom51,

There are many people on this forum who use A Resmed CPAP with a non Resmed mask very successfully and I am one of them. I use both a Resmed mask and a Fisher and Paykel mask.

You need to quit thinking about this problem as a CPAP manufacturer problem and think about it as a system problem. Why did you replace your S9 autoset? Did your S9 have a Climateline heated hose? What position are you laying in when you get sprayed? Does it happen within 10 minutes of starting CPAP or later on? How much later on? On manual what makes 2 too low?

One thing that it would be helpful to know is the temperature of the room that you sleep in.

In general, the only way for a CPAP to "spray" water at you is for the water to build up in a low section of the hose until it blocks the hose. Then the pressure builds up behind the water dam and blasts the water out of the way. If this occurs reasonably close to the mask, you will get sprayed.

Having the machine lower than the mask is not a sufficient condition to ensure that any condensation that occurs in the hose drains back into the tank. You need to have at least the first 3 feet of hose continually rising with no dips where water might collect.

I would make a cozy for the short hose that comes with the mask and also for the plastic piece that the pillows fit into. If that was not sufficient, I would switch the long hose out to a non-heated hose making sure that I have at least 3 feet of good drainback and I might even forego a cozy on the long hose.

Best Regards,

PaytonA

S9 does have a heated hose and works perfectly - no rainout ever. Hose goes up on headboard and back down as used with the S9. There is a hose cover on the hose and a tiny cover on the hose part of the mask. I have tried both the heated and non-heated hoses. The only thing I haven't tried yet is the duct tape recommended by the tech or a tiny cloth cover that you mention for the piece that holds the pillows. I guess I will try that before bronzing the machine.

The spraying would not start right away - maybe a couple of hours in. Room is 68 degrees. Everything is identical to the way the S9 was used - but because of the increased humidity purposefully designed into the Airsense 10, it's just too much for the Auto Climate to work with the Breeze mask properly - this is per the Tech Dept at ResMed. And using the manual settings is a guessing game - 2 feels too dry and 3 is moderate rainout. I don't know why - wish there was a 2.5 - but there again, it depends on the day's humidity so you have to guess what will work each day. That's why I wished the Climate control heated hose would work.

I purchased the Airsense 10 because my S9 is getting older and I liked the size and look of it and I stupidly thought it would work the same. Again, as per ResMed, in regards to humidity, they are Not the same. They said a person would have the most problems trying to use a Breeze mask with an Airsense !0 versus any other mask. Just the way it is, they said. So actually, it is a manufacturer's "problem" in regards to the mask I choose to use and the manufacturer admitted that very openly and honestly (with sadly, much laughter and giggling). I realize I would have better luck with a different mask, but cannot yet find one that will work for me. I will continue trying.

Frankly, I think that the laughter and giggling is very unprofessional and rather insulting and I do not blame you one bit for being incensed about that.

The fact that it has a humidity problem with one mask out of all the masks and at a few settings out of all the possibilities does not make the Airsense 10 at fault. If you had researched the Airsense 10 with the Climateline hose, you would have known that the auto mode for this machine is set to 85% RH instead of the 80% RH setting designed into the S9 Climateline in auto mode. Of course, even knowing that does not tell you how it will react with your mask. Resmed has stated that the 85% RH was a mistake, probably because many people are having more difficulty with rainout. Yes, I do know the difference between rainout and what you are experiencing and I can see the design features of the Breeze mask that cause that difference. One of the problems is the thermal conductivity of the plastic pillow holder.

I am surprised to hear that you have not tried turning the temperature up on your climateline hose. That would have been one of the first things that I would have tried and I would suggest that you give it a try along with your covering for the short hose and trying to find something to insulate the plastic pillow holder. Duct tape might not be a bad way to go especially if you put on several layers possibly with some old wool material between layers.

Why is the manual setting of 2 too low for you? Is it too drying?

Best Regards,

PaytonA


Setting of 2 is very drying for me. Setting of 3 causes a fair amount of rainout - enough to wake me up for shaking out the mask/hose 2-3 times a night. I don't understand how there could be such a strongly different result with such a small change, but that's the way it is.

Interesting that ResMed says they made a "mistake" in using 85% humidity - I don't guess they would like to take responsibility for that "mistake" that causes certain users to be completely unable to use their "mistake" - cost me a great amount of money as was bought without insurance and both ResMed and the big giant seller have made it perfectly clear (including the President of the big giant seller) that they do not give a flip about it. If it was an auto maker perhaps there would be a recall, but in my case I am left to lose a bundle of money for a useless brick paperweight. Perhaps they should include a bonus gift package of wool and duct tape for those of us (and actually there are quite a few having problems) with masks that their "mistake" was not made to be used with. It's certainly been the worst purchase I have ever made and in my opinion, the worst machine put out by ResMed in regards to testing with a Wide variety of masks to make Sure their "Inventive" increase of humidity "just because" would be a good idea.

Sorry but I think it is ridiculous that I am having to wrap wool and duct tape around a mask to even Try to use my mask of choice. It's going to add a lot of weight to a mask that is not designed to be used this way and I have no doubt it will make it so the pillows will not seal. This whole scenario is just horrible and infuriating and deceitful and there is No accountability on the part of the people that make or sell this machine.
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#34
You could turn your argument around and ask why PUritan and Bennet could not design a mask that would work with all CPAPs.

I can not help you with Resmed. I have tried to give you things that you might try to make things work. I really am sorry that you are having so much trouble.

Sleep well,

PaytonA
Post Reply Post Reply
#35
(01-18-2016, 12:59 PM)bluemom51 Wrote: Setting of 2 is very drying for me. Setting of 3 causes a fair amount of rainout - enough to wake me up for shaking out the mask/hose 2-3 times a night. I don't understand how there could be such a strongly different result with such a small change, but that's the way it is.

Interesting that ResMed says they made a "mistake" in using 85% humidity - I don't guess they would like to take responsibility for that "mistake" that causes certain users to be completely unable to use their "mistake" - cost me a great amount of money as was bought without insurance and both ResMed and the big giant seller have made it perfectly clear (including the President of the big giant seller) that they do not give a flip about it. If it was an auto maker perhaps there would be a recall, but in my case I am left to lose a bundle of money for a useless brick paperweight. Perhaps they should include a bonus gift package of wool and duct tape for those of us (and actually there are quite a few having problems) with masks that their "mistake" was not made to be used with. It's certainly been the worst purchase I have ever made and in my opinion, the worst machine put out by ResMed in regards to testing with a Wide variety of masks to make Sure their "Inventive" increase of humidity "just because" would be a good idea.

Sorry but I think it is ridiculous that I am having to wrap wool and duct tape around a mask to even Try to use my mask of choice. It's going to add a lot of weight to a mask that is not designed to be used this way and I have no doubt it will make it so the pillows will not seal. This whole scenario is just horrible and infuriating and deceitful and there is No accountability on the part of the people that make or sell this machine.

"If it was an auto maker perhaps there would be a recall," -- The automobile industry is unregulated; the Medical Industry is COMPLETELY regulated!

That is to say no medical equipment can be sold in the United States without the approval of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

I have no idea what the "complaint process" with the FDA involves, but one most certainly exists (http://www.fda.gov). I would (optimistically) assume that someone on this forum is aware of how to file a complaint.
Bill Magill
Retired computing and networking professional
(ARPAnet, Unix and Mac OSX)
"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect,
but actually — from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint —
it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff."
The Doctor
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#36
Pull the covers up over your head, the mask will stay much warmer.

Dude
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#37
(01-18-2016, 11:20 PM)bluemom51 Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 10:46 PM)PaytonA Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 12:59 PM)bluemom51 Wrote: S9 does have a heated hose and works perfectly - no rainout ever. Hose goes up on headboard and back down as used with the S9. There is a hose cover on the hose and a tiny cover on the hose part of the mask. I have tried both the heated and non-heated hoses. The only thing I haven't tried yet is the duct tape recommended by the tech or a tiny cloth cover that you mention for the piece that holds the pillows. I guess I will try that before bronzing the machine.

The spraying would not start right away - maybe a couple of hours in. Room is 68 degrees. Everything is identical to the way the S9 was used - but because of the increased humidity purposefully designed into the Airsense 10, it's just too much for the Auto Climate to work with the Breeze mask properly - this is per the Tech Dept at ResMed. And using the manual settings is a guessing game - 2 feels too dry and 3 is moderate rainout. I don't know why - wish there was a 2.5 - but there again, it depends on the day's humidity so you have to guess what will work each day. That's why I wished the Climate control heated hose would work.

I purchased the Airsense 10 because my S9 is getting older and I liked the size and look of it and I stupidly thought it would work the same. Again, as per ResMed, in regards to humidity, they are Not the same. They said a person would have the most problems trying to use a Breeze mask with an Airsense !0 versus any other mask. Just the way it is, they said. So actually, it is a manufacturer's "problem" in regards to the mask I choose to use and the manufacturer admitted that very openly and honestly (with sadly, much laughter and giggling). I realize I would have better luck with a different mask, but cannot yet find one that will work for me. I will continue trying.

Frankly, I think that the laughter and giggling is very unprofessional and rather insulting and I do not blame you one bit for being incensed about that.

The fact that it has a humidity problem with one mask out of all the masks and at a few settings out of all the possibilities does not make the Airsense 10 at fault. If you had researched the Airsense 10 with the Climateline hose, you would have known that the auto mode for this machine is set to 85% RH instead of the 80% RH setting designed into the S9 Climateline in auto mode. Of course, even knowing that does not tell you how it will react with your mask. Resmed has stated that the 85% RH was a mistake, probably because many people are having more difficulty with rainout. Yes, I do know the difference between rainout and what you are experiencing and I can see the design features of the Breeze mask that cause that difference. One of the problems is the thermal conductivity of the plastic pillow holder.

I am surprised to hear that you have not tried turning the temperature up on your climateline hose. That would have been one of the first things that I would have tried and I would suggest that you give it a try along with your covering for the short hose and trying to find something to insulate the plastic pillow holder. Duct tape might not be a bad way to go especially if you put on several layers possibly with some old wool material between layers.

Why is the manual setting of 2 too low for you? Is it too drying?

Best Regards,

PaytonA


Setting of 2 is very drying for me. Setting of 3 causes a fair amount of rainout - enough to wake me up for shaking out the mask/hose 2-3 times a night. I don't understand how there could be such a strongly different result with such a small change, but that's the way it is.

Interesting that ResMed says they made a "mistake" in using 85% humidity - I don't guess they would like to take responsibility for that "mistake" that causes certain users to be completely unable to use their "mistake" - cost me a great amount of money as was bought without insurance and both ResMed and the big giant seller have made it perfectly clear (including the President of the big giant seller) that they do not give a flip about it. If it was an auto maker perhaps there would be a recall, but in my case I am left to lose a bundle of money for a useless brick paperweight. Perhaps they should include a bonus gift package of wool and duct tape for those of us (and actually there are quite a few having problems) with masks that their "mistake" was not made to be used with. It's certainly been the worst purchase I have ever made and in my opinion, the worst machine put out by ResMed in regards to testing with a Wide variety of masks to make Sure their "Inventive" increase of humidity "just because" would be a good idea.

Sorry but I think it is ridiculous that I am having to wrap wool and duct tape around a mask to even Try to use my mask of choice. It's going to add a lot of weight to a mask that is not designed to be used this way and I have no doubt it will make it so the pillows will not seal. This whole scenario is just horrible and infuriating and deceitful and there is No accountability on the part of the people that make or sell this machine.

Sorry to hear your having trouble, Have you tried setting your humidity to Auto?
The reason I ask is I also have the Airsense 10 and the heated hose,I use the Eson nasal mask with the machine set to Auto, room temp is a cool 63 and I only on occasion have rain out issue, and when I do it's never that bad at all, a mere drip or two which i can tolerate.
I don't use anything on the hose to keep it warm, the hose runs from the machine to the head of the bed and over my pillow to the mask which is on a swivel.
Don't know what else to suggest .
Good Luck.
Sleep-well
Post Reply Post Reply
#38
(01-19-2016, 04:39 PM)Mr. Van Winkle Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 11:20 PM)bluemom51 Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 10:46 PM)PaytonA Wrote: Frankly, I think that the laughter and giggling is very unprofessional and rather insulting and I do not blame you one bit for being incensed about that.

The fact that it has a humidity problem with one mask out of all the masks and at a few settings out of all the possibilities does not make the Airsense 10 at fault. If you had researched the Airsense 10 with the Climateline hose, you would have known that the auto mode for this machine is set to 85% RH instead of the 80% RH setting designed into the S9 Climateline in auto mode. Of course, even knowing that does not tell you how it will react with your mask. Resmed has stated that the 85% RH was a mistake, probably because many people are having more difficulty with rainout. Yes, I do know the difference between rainout and what you are experiencing and I can see the design features of the Breeze mask that cause that difference. One of the problems is the thermal conductivity of the plastic pillow holder.

I am surprised to hear that you have not tried turning the temperature up on your climateline hose. That would have been one of the first things that I would have tried and I would suggest that you give it a try along with your covering for the short hose and trying to find something to insulate the plastic pillow holder. Duct tape might not be a bad way to go especially if you put on several layers possibly with some old wool material between layers.

Why is the manual setting of 2 too low for you? Is it too drying?

Best Regards,

PaytonA


Setting of 2 is very drying for me. Setting of 3 causes a fair amount of rainout - enough to wake me up for shaking out the mask/hose 2-3 times a night. I don't understand how there could be such a strongly different result with such a small change, but that's the way it is.

Interesting that ResMed says they made a "mistake" in using 85% humidity - I don't guess they would like to take responsibility for that "mistake" that causes certain users to be completely unable to use their "mistake" - cost me a great amount of money as was bought without insurance and both ResMed and the big giant seller have made it perfectly clear (including the President of the big giant seller) that they do not give a flip about it. If it was an auto maker perhaps there would be a recall, but in my case I am left to lose a bundle of money for a useless brick paperweight. Perhaps they should include a bonus gift package of wool and duct tape for those of us (and actually there are quite a few having problems) with masks that their "mistake" was not made to be used with. It's certainly been the worst purchase I have ever made and in my opinion, the worst machine put out by ResMed in regards to testing with a Wide variety of masks to make Sure their "Inventive" increase of humidity "just because" would be a good idea.

Sorry but I think it is ridiculous that I am having to wrap wool and duct tape around a mask to even Try to use my mask of choice. It's going to add a lot of weight to a mask that is not designed to be used this way and I have no doubt it will make it so the pillows will not seal. This whole scenario is just horrible and infuriating and deceitful and there is No accountability on the part of the people that make or sell this machine.

Sorry to hear your having trouble, Have you tried setting your humidity to Auto?
The reason I ask is I also have the Airsense 10 and the heated hose,I use the Eson nasal mask with the machine set to Auto, room temp is a cool 63 and I only on occasion have rain out issue, and when I do it's never that bad at all, a mere drip or two which i can tolerate.
I don't use anything on the hose to keep it warm, the hose runs from the machine to the head of the bed and over my pillow to the mask which is on a swivel.
Don't know what else to suggest .
Good Luck.
Sleep-well

Yes, auto is what causes the great flood - water spraying everywhere like a hose nozzle - it's actually quite amusing and would make a great video - don't think it would be popular at Resmed headquarters........A "drop or two" would be a miracle at this point - picture the Mississippi in flood stage - that's what you get when you combine an Airsense10 with a Breeze mask and "climate control" settings. I would make a good system for watering bushes and flowers - it's that strong - really......
Post Reply Post Reply
#39
(01-19-2016, 05:38 PM)bluemom51 Wrote:
(01-19-2016, 04:39 PM)Mr. Van Winkle Wrote:
(01-18-2016, 11:20 PM)bluemom51 Wrote: Setting of 2 is very drying for me. Setting of 3 causes a fair amount of rainout - enough to wake me up for shaking out the mask/hose 2-3 times a night. I don't understand how there could be such a strongly different result with such a small change, but that's the way it is.

Interesting that ResMed says they made a "mistake" in using 85% humidity - I don't guess they would like to take responsibility for that "mistake" that causes certain users to be completely unable to use their "mistake" - cost me a great amount of money as was bought without insurance and both ResMed and the big giant seller have made it perfectly clear (including the President of the big giant seller) that they do not give a flip about it. If it was an auto maker perhaps there would be a recall, but in my case I am left to lose a bundle of money for a useless brick paperweight. Perhaps they should include a bonus gift package of wool and duct tape for those of us (and actually there are quite a few having problems) with masks that their "mistake" was not made to be used with. It's certainly been the worst purchase I have ever made and in my opinion, the worst machine put out by ResMed in regards to testing with a Wide variety of masks to make Sure their "Inventive" increase of humidity "just because" would be a good idea.

Sorry but I think it is ridiculous that I am having to wrap wool and duct tape around a mask to even Try to use my mask of choice. It's going to add a lot of weight to a mask that is not designed to be used this way and I have no doubt it will make it so the pillows will not seal. This whole scenario is just horrible and infuriating and deceitful and there is No accountability on the part of the people that make or sell this machine.

Sorry to hear your having trouble, Have you tried setting your humidity to Auto?
The reason I ask is I also have the Airsense 10 and the heated hose,I use the Eson nasal mask with the machine set to Auto, room temp is a cool 63 and I only on occasion have rain out issue, and when I do it's never that bad at all, a mere drip or two which i can tolerate.
I don't use anything on the hose to keep it warm, the hose runs from the machine to the head of the bed and over my pillow to the mask which is on a swivel.
Don't know what else to suggest .
Good Luck.
Sleep-well

Yes, auto is what causes the great flood - water spraying everywhere like a hose nozzle - it's actually quite amusing and would make a great video - don't think it would be popular at Resmed headquarters........A "drop or two" would be a miracle at this point - picture the Mississippi in flood stage - that's what you get when you combine an Airsense10 with a Breeze mask and "climate control" settings. I would make a good system for watering bushes and flowers - it's that strong - really......

Wow, Sounds like something is seriously wrong!, Wished they would take you serious and check that machine out under a warranty situation .
Good luck
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