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Any way to determine REM sleep from Flow Rate?
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Roy289 Offline

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Post: #1
Any way to determine REM sleep from Flow Rate?
Can REM sleep be identified by examing Flow Rate on APAP machine? Are there other methods to determine sleep architecture without being connected to full suite of sleep study equipment.
07-24-2016 09:31 AM
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green wings Offline

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Post: #2
RE: Any way to determine REM sleep from Flow Rate?
(07-24-2016 09:31 AM)Roy289 Wrote:  Can REM sleep be identified by examing Flow Rate on APAP machine? Are there other methods to determine sleep architecture without being connected to full suite of sleep study equipment.

I can tell you the names of some tech equipment that's supposed to give a rough idea of sleep stages. I haven't used any of it.

- ResMed S+
- Withings Aura
- FitBit Flex

If you had a sleep study and have access to the results, you might check to see if your apnea was worse during REM sleep. If it was, then you will probably see periods in your APAP pressure response graph where the pressure has to increase quite a bit to prevent obstructive events. Those periods may (or may not be) REM sleep. It might also mean you shifted from your side to your back if your apnea is positional.

As far as looking at SH graphs, take a look at the graphs for respiratory rate and minute volume (or tidal volume) in particular. (Some people look at flow rate). You may have to play with the y-axis scaling before you can see shifts in those values.
07-24-2016 11:07 AM
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OpalRose Offline

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Post: #3
RE: Any way to determine REM sleep from Flow Rate?
(07-24-2016 09:31 AM)Roy289 Wrote:  Can REM sleep be identified by examing Flow Rate on APAP machine? Are there other methods to determine sleep architecture without being connected to full suite of sleep study equipment.


Hi Roy289,
I have seen this question before and I don't think there is a "definite" way to determine this on SleepyHead.

I purchased the JawBone UP 3 wrist band about a month ago. (Under $80.00)
Originally bought it to monitor steps.
(I have discovered I'm more of a couch potato that I thought.) Sad

Anyway, downloaded the App for the JawBone and discovered it tracks sleep cycles, so decided to start wearing it to bed.

I'm not suggesting anyone buy this, because I am unsure of its accuracy.

The app gives you a graph of what time you went to bed and the time you woke up. It also lists wake times during the night. Although, I very seldom get up during the night, I find the reporting seems to correlate with SH.

It also lists sleep cycles and labels them as Light Sleep, Deep Sleep, and REM. I have been trying to compare this with SleepyHead Graphs to try and pinpoint REM sleep.

I'm unsure as to the difference in their listing between Deep Sleep and REM, but it looks like my respiration goes up during REM Sleep.

Like I said, I am a bit skeptical about it's accuracy, but comparing to SH, it is quite interesting.

I've only used it now for a couple weeks, but it gives me some idea as to my sleep cycles.

The Up band gives no information by just looking at it. You have to download the UP app. I open the app on my IPad, then open up sleepyhead on my desktop to compare. There is no way to incorporate this into SH.

It would be nice to find a device that would allow the sleep stages to be imported into SleepyHead. Or, you would think, that with the cost of CPAP machines, that the major players like ResMed and Phillips Respironics would incorporate this information into the data. Maybe some day.

OpalRose
07-24-2016 11:21 AM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #4
RE: Any way to determine REM sleep from Flow Rate?
I agree that an attempt to look at SH data to determine REM would be unreliable.
I see two ways; and they both required electrical sensors.
One is to place contacts near the eyes to look for the electrical signals for eye movement.
The other is a single lead EEG.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
07-24-2016 11:55 AM
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Roy289 Offline

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Post: #5
RE: Any way to determine REM sleep from Flow Rate?
Thanks everyone for some interesting details on REM. The Jawbone UP 3 device may provide good insight to sleep stages. Nice to track your results after using it a longer time.

From my research on the internet missing REM stages impacts quality of sleep the most. It would be nice to have a tool to gauge the effectiveness of APAP besides the AHI number. Perhaps a low cost single wire ECG might provide the REM details as suggested.

My titration study is scheduled for Aug 4 and I hope to get more details from this test.
07-24-2016 02:21 PM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #6
RE: Any way to determine REM sleep from Flow Rate?
(07-24-2016 02:21 PM)Roy289 Wrote:  Perhaps a low cost single wire ECG EEG might provide the REM details as suggested.

Fixed it for you.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
07-24-2016 04:06 PM
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Ockrocket Offline

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Post: #7
RE: Any way to determine REM sleep from Flow Rate?
Short of being "wired up" every night to track brain waves, the simple answer is no... I've had discussion with my respiratory specialist about it.

I use a Garmin VivoFit tracker 24/7

It tracks deep sleep v light sleep based on recording body movement with an accelerometer while you sleep.
Basically when in light sleep our movements during sleep are "faster" than when in deep sleep, but it can't differentiate between the two types of deep sleep phase we go through when sleeping.

I equate it to light sleep = tortoise.. deep sleep = sloth. SHa_biggrin5

When I'm in light sleep I roll over immediately when my wife slaps me in the head for snoring... in deep sleep she slaps me three times before I get rolled over. Laugh-a-lot
07-25-2016 01:08 AM
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Roy289 Offline

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Post: #8
RE: Any way to determine REM sleep from Flow Rate?
justMongo ... thanks for correction

OckRocket .... 2 vs 3 slaps very funny

To bad there is no easy way to determine sleep phases . Guess how you feel in the morning is the only real measure
07-25-2016 07:08 AM
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icyura10 Offline

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Post: #9
RE: Any way to determine REM sleep from Flow Rate?
Don't worry, I'm certain some devious soul is working device that can scan our brains at will allow collection various stages of sleep even when we're awake!

OH WAIT.. IT'S HERE!

http://beforeitsnews.com/science-and-tec...59400.html

Oh... but there's HIPAA considerations and 13,000 other things to think about, none of which would be worse than some kind soul figuring out how to introduce devious or is it delicious dreams into your sleep from afar... I think someone made a movie about something like about this not to long ago.

WE ARE THE BORG. LOWER YOUR SHIELDS AND SURRENDER YOUR BODIES. WE WILL ADD YOUR BIOLOGICAL AND TECHNOLOGICAL DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR CULTURE WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

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07-25-2016 07:57 AM
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o1bob037 Offline

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Post: #10
RE: Any way to determine REM sleep from Flow Rate?
I use CPAP and not APAP, but you can identify the REM periods via the respiratory rate and not the flow rate.

"Breathing rate (BR) during rapid eye movement (REM) sleep is known to fluctuate largely..." ~~pubmed Rapid increase to double breathing rate appears during REM sleep in synchrony with REM - a higher CNS control of breathing?

I would post an image from my Sleepy Head readout, but I'm not allowed to post images.

You can see the periods of REM sleep with the large fluctuations in the respiratory rate graph. But these fluctuations are not visible in the flow rate graph. This is because the flow rate is the measurement of liters of air per minute and the respiratory rate is the measurement of breaths per minute.

Your breaths per minute is fluctuating all over the place during REM sleep and that is easy to see. This doesn't show in the flow rate because you're apparently using the same volume of air even though your breaths per minute keeps changing.
08-30-2016 02:45 PM
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