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Be Careful What Filters You Use!
#11
(12-17-2012, 03:40 PM)archangle Wrote: Your lung problems almost certainly have nothing to do with your filters. Even with "bad" filters, CPAPers will be breathing cleaner air than non-apneacs sleeping in the same room.
Can you explain that further? The machine amplifies the amount of air and whatever else escapes a poor filter being used to open the obstruction to your lungs. Like an air compressor if you turn up the PSI the machine is turned up to produce MORE air for those with severe obstructions thus increasing the amount of air taken from the location where the machine is THROUGH the filter. Once the obstruction is open and we can breathe at a normal rate, where does the air, dust, bacteria, etc. land if using a poor filter?

The filters are there mostly to protect the machine from dust, not to protect you from dust.
I respectively have to disagree with the above statement. Reason being for the same answer I gave above. The sound at the end of our hose when on is proof of that, and certainly stronger output at 20cm vs 4cm is noticeably heard by ear.
If there were no filters at all in the machine, you'd still just be breathing the room air that you breathe 16 hours a day. Using a totally unfiltered CPAP machine would expose you to no more dust than a person without apnea would breathe.
I have to strongly respectively disagree. Higher output, ie; 20cm, would certainly produce MORE air, dust, vapors, odors, etc. from the input source to the output source thus INCREASING into the intended location a higher volume of output and whatever is drawn into it, (dust, bacteria, odors, etc.)

And before someone says it, the CPAP doesn't "force the dust into your lungs." It simply keeps your airway open so that you breathe like a non-apneac would breathe.
Are you saying that once the CPAP machine does what it is intended to do, OPEN ANY OBSTRUCTIONS, that once open the air that can then continue to the lungs won't carry anything with it due to a poor or NO filter?

]It's important to use the right filters and change them at the proper time because a plugged filter can make the machine overheat, or even deliver the wrong pressure. Good filters do give you the advantage of breathing cleaner air, too.
Doesn't that contradict what you state above?

I am not here to make enemies and certainly hope you don't take offense to my reply but I believe your post could potentially place CPAP users at risk if they are not using proper filters. The hypoallergenic filter was certainly made to offer the user more protection than to protect the machine. Also, the discontinuation of the standard gray coarse filters compared to the new tight knit standard filters indicates to me better protection for the patient. I can agree the machine would be cleaner when filtered but I see your view as completely opposite, the filter is to protect the patient first! Also this company recommends changing the filter every six months! I find that totally unacceptable as the company can't possibly predict where each machine will be used and in what type of environment. My walls are much thinner than any newer house, thus less insulation, and not as air tight. Also old furnace duct work compared to today's standards. And I also have pets. I believe if we asked other members they would see their filters need changing long before six months. My post is intended to protect fellow CPAPPERS from using discontinued coarse filters. I cannot say for sure they were the cause or contributed to my current condition but I certainly can't exclude them but the time frame fits exactly!


Tim
Finger Lakes Region, NY
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#12
I buy the standard filters and clean them after 1 month and replace them after 2 months. I pay for them out of my own pocket but they only cost A$30.00 for a pack of 12 and postage is free.
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#13
(12-17-2012, 05:18 PM)Allen Wrote: I buy the standard filters and clean them after 1 month and replace them after 2 months. I pay for them out of my own pocket but they only cost A$30.00 for a pack of 12 and postage is free.

Great idea, I can't possibly endorse waiting six months! Better safe than sorry!
Tim
Finger Lakes Region, NY
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#14
(12-17-2012, 05:06 PM)2Tim215 Wrote: The machine amplifies the amount of air being pushed into your lungs to keep open any obstructions.
not sure of this. the machine deliver air to open obstructions in the airways
I breath on my own ... the machine doesn't breathe for me
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#15
(12-17-2012, 06:00 PM)zonk Wrote:
(12-17-2012, 05:06 PM)2Tim215 Wrote: The machine amplifies the amount of air being pushed into your lungs to keep open any obstructions.
not sure of this. the machine deliver air to open obstructions in the airways
I breath on my own ... the machine doesn't breathe for me
Yes Zonk, This is true. But you won't receive the normal amount of air non-apnea people receive UNTIL the machine opens your obstruction which then allows the air to pass into your lungs with or without possible dust, bacteria, etc. depending on your machines filtration system. I had a lung collapse back in 1991, I would be a bit nervous if the machine blew up my lungs! It simply clears the obstruction and allows what the machine passes through, preferably just good filtered air! That's why I suggest the hypoallergenic filters, worth the difference in price!
Tim
Finger Lakes Region, NY
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#16
(12-17-2012, 05:06 PM)2Tim215 Wrote:
(12-17-2012, 03:40 PM)archangle Wrote: Your lung problems almost certainly have nothing to do with your filters. Even with "bad" filters, CPAPers will be breathing cleaner air than non-apneacs sleeping in the same room.
[color=#FF0000]Can you explain that further? The machine amplifies the amount of air
....

I understand that it seems like you'd be breathing more air (or dust) on CPAP than a non-apneac. Most people probably believe that, but you have to look at the physics of the situation.

Normal atmospheric pressure is 760 mmHg or 1030 cmH2O. Even if your CPAP is at maximum pressure of 20 cmH2O, the density of the air only increases about 2%, so, at most, the concentration of crud in CPAP air would only increase 2% even with no filtering at all.

I'll agree you might get a 2% increase in dust due to the pressure if you used NO filtering at all. I can't imagine there is any filter bad enough to not reduce dust at least 2%.

I presume you realize that the dust collecting in your lungs will be proportional to the amount of air and dust that enters your lungs, not the amount of air blowing down the hose and out through the exhaust vent.

The amount of air entering your lungs is referred to as "minute ventilation" or "minute vent." Minute vent in CPAPers is usually in the normal range for people without apnea. Mine is about 9 l/m, which is in the normal range for non-apneacs. I'm not breathing much, if any, more air while CPAPing than I would if I didn't have apnea.

If you want to find out how much air is entering your lungs with CPAP, look at your average minute vent in your SleepyHead results and post it here.

One of the strange, counterintuitive things about CPAP is that minute vent rates stay pretty constant, even when the pressure increases. (For most patients.)

CPAPers don't breathe in significantly more dust and crud than a non apneac without CPAP, even without filters in the CPAP machine. With filters, even bad ones, we'll breathe even less crud than a person without CPAP.

Re: Sound.

The sound is caused by air escaping through the exhaust vent. As pressure goes up, the airflow through the exhaust vent goes up and the pressure goes up. Both effects increase the noise level.

Re: Air is cleaner with the right filter.

I don't see why this is confusing. The air coming out of a CPAP with the right filter will be cleaner than the air coming out of a CPAP with no filters or with the wrong filter. With no filter, you're just breathing the same air you breathe the rest of the day.

Re: Hypo-allergenic filter

It's "hypo", not "hyper". A "hyper" allergenic filter would increase allergens.

The main reason for the filter is to protect the machine. "Hypoallergenic" is an added value to the patient, but the main purpose of having filters is still to protect the machine.
Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
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#17
(12-16-2012, 08:33 PM)TheWerkz Wrote: Hi Tim,

I too believe the hypoallergenic filters are worth every penny!

I can't believe ResMed only recommends to change them every 6 months... After 2 months mine was noticeably darker than a new filter and I also have a high quality air filter in my HVAC that gets changed monthly.

Whenever you're short of breath have you checked your SpO2 level to see if you might need supplemental O2?

Ren
Hi Ren, I'm going to look into a better filter also for our furnace. It is about 12 years old but the duct work is MUCH older! Thanks for the idea, I'm looking for any improvements possible now to make breathing easier.
Tim
Finger Lakes Region, NY
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#18
(12-17-2012, 07:28 PM)archangle Wrote:
(12-17-2012, 05:06 PM)2Tim215 Wrote:
(12-17-2012, 03:40 PM)archangle Wrote: Your lung problems almost certainly have nothing to do with your filters. Even with "bad" filters, CPAPers will be breathing cleaner air than non-apneacs sleeping in the same room.
[color=#FF0000]Can you explain that further? The machine amplifies the amount of air
....

I understand that it seems like you'd be breathing more air (or dust) on CPAP than a non-apneac. Most people probably believe that, but you have to look at the physics of the situation.

Normal atmospheric pressure is 760 mmHg or 1030 cmH2O. Even if your CPAP is at maximum pressure of 20 cmH2O, the density of the air only increases about 2%, so, at most, the concentration of crud in CPAP air would only increase 2% even with no filtering at all.

I'll agree you might get a 2% increase in dust due to the pressure if you used NO filtering at all. I can't imagine there is any filter bad enough to not reduce dust at least 2%.

I presume you realize that the dust collecting in your lungs will be proportional to the amount of air and dust that enters your lungs, not the amount of air blowing down the hose and out through the exhaust vent.

The amount of air entering your lungs is referred to as "minute ventilation" or "minute vent." Minute vent in CPAPers is usually in the normal range for people without apnea. Mine is about 9 l/m, which is in the normal range for non-apneacs. I'm not breathing much, if any, more air while CPAPing than I would if I didn't have apnea.

If you want to find out how much air is entering your lungs with CPAP, look at your average minute vent in your SleepyHead results and post it here.

One of the strange, counterintuitive things about CPAP is that minute vent rates stay pretty constant, even when the pressure increases. (For most patients.)

CPAPers don't breathe in significantly more dust and crud than a non apneac without CPAP, even without filters in the CPAP machine. With filters, even bad ones, we'll breathe even less crud than a person without CPAP.

Re: Sound.

The sound is caused by air escaping through the exhaust vent. As pressure goes up, the airflow through the exhaust vent goes up and the pressure goes up. Both effects increase the noise level.

Re: Air is cleaner with the right filter.

I don't see why this is confusing. The air coming out of a CPAP with the right filter will be cleaner than the air coming out of a CPAP with no filters or with the wrong filter. With no filter, you're just breathing the same air you breathe the rest of the day.

Re: Hypo-allergenic filter

It's "hypo", not "hyper". A "hyper" allergenic filter would increase allergens.

The main reason for the filter is to protect the machine. "Hypoallergenic" is an added value to the patient, but the main purpose of having filters is still to protect the machine.
archangel, technically it sounds like you are much more advanced than I am. Looking at things from a "lay" perspective I can't help to wonder where the dust, etc. went with the grey filter as it hardly showed any build up and was obviously much more coarse than the new ones. With the Hypoallergenic (thank you!), filter I clearly see what was blocked from passing through the machine. Wouldn't this mean that the difference went to my obstruction area and eventually to my lungs at our normal breathing rate?

Tim
Finger Lakes Region, NY
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#19
(12-17-2012, 07:28 PM)archangle Wrote:
(12-17-2012, 05:06 PM)2Tim215 Wrote:
(12-17-2012, 03:40 PM)archangle Wrote: Your lung problems almost certainly have nothing to do with your filters. Even with "bad" filters, CPAPers will be breathing cleaner air than non-apneacs sleeping in the same room.
[color=#FF0000]Can you explain that further? The machine amplifies the amount of air
....

I understand that it seems like you'd be breathing more air (or dust) on CPAP than a non-apneac. Most people probably believe that, but you have to look at the physics of the situation.
I don't believe we are "breathing" more air, I believe we are receiving more air to open the obstruction so we can breath normally.

Normal atmospheric pressure is 760 mmHg or 1030 cmH2O. Even if your CPAP is at maximum pressure of 20 cmH2O, the density of the air only increases about 2%, so, at most, the concentration of crud in CPAP air would only increase 2% even with no filtering at all.

I'll agree you might get a 2% increase in dust due to the pressure if you used NO filtering at all. I can't imagine there is any filter bad enough to not reduce dust at least 2%.

I presume you realize that the dust collecting in your lungs will be proportional to the amount of air and dust that enters your lungs, not the amount of air blowing down the hose and out through the exhaust vent.
Agreed

The amount of air entering your lungs is referred to as "minute ventilation" or "minute vent." Minute vent in CPAPers is usually in the normal range for people without apnea. Mine is about 9 l/m, which is in the normal range for non-apneacs. I'm not breathing much, if any, more air while CPAPing than I would if I didn't have apnea.

If you want to find out how much air is entering your lungs with CPAP, look at your average minute vent in your SleepyHead results and post it here.
[Image: minute_vent1.png]
Keep in mind I am severely fatigued thus the long period. Breaks indicate meals, BR, etc.

One of the strange, counterintuitive things about CPAP is that minute vent rates stay pretty constant, even when the pressure increases. (For most patients.)

CPAPers don't breathe in significantly more dust and crud than a non apneac without CPAP, even without filters in the CPAP machine. With filters, even bad ones, we'll breathe even less crud than a person without CPAP.


Re: Sound.

The sound is caused by air escaping through the exhaust vent. As pressure goes up, the airflow through the exhaust vent goes up and the pressure goes up. Both effects increase the noise level.
Agreed, I believe that is what I indicated.

Re: Air is cleaner with the right filter.

I don't see why this is confusing. The air coming out of a CPAP with the right filter will be cleaner than the air coming out of a CPAP with no filters or with the wrong filter. With no filter, you're just breathing the same air you breathe the rest of the day.
But the machine is multiplying the amount of airborne items which when passed through a poor filter must land at the obstruction area. I realize this is where the airway is opened so we can breath normally, but where do these airborne items end up? Where else could they go? Now consider my situation. I used the grey coarse filter for several months, the combined accumulation of what passed through is concerning to me as a possible contributor to my current situation.

Re: Hypo-allergenic filter

It's "hypo", not "hyper". A "hyper" allergenic filter would increase allergens.

The main reason for the filter is to protect the machine. "Hypoallergenic" is an added value to the patient, but the main purpose of having filters is still to protect the machine.
I am just being honest, I find that hard to believe. It seems to me the patient would be the intended target for most safety issues, especially with breathing devices. I can't imagine a company designing a filter to protect the machine over the patient when other internal precautions could be made to protect the machine.

Tim
Finger Lakes Region, NY
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#20
Once again, I agree with using the right filter.

Re: Protecting the machine, not the patient.

Bad things happen to the machine without the right filter.

Without the right filter, the patient is just breathing the same level of crud a non-apneac gets during sleep. And the same air you breathe while awake at home.

The machine needs the filter. The patient doesn't "need" it.

--

Re: Increasing the dust.

The machine doesn't "multiply" the density of dust in the air. It doesn't multiply the amount of air that enters the lungs vs. a non-apneac.

The machine blows extra air, but the extra air goes out the exhale vent without ever entering your body.

For instance, my machine pumps about 30 l/m of air down the tube. 10 l/m of it goes into my nose (minute vent), but 20 l/m of it goes out of the exhale vent without ever entering my body. The dust in the 20 l/m doesn't have any effect on me at all. Only the dust in the 10 l/m affects me.

If I didn't have apnea, I'd presumably be breathing about 10 l/m of room air with no CPAP and no filter. The amount of crud I breathed would be the same in either case, if there was no filter.

---

Yes, filtered air is cleaner than non filtered air. That's an added benefit to the patient from using the right filter. Presumably the hypoallergenic filter gives you even cleaner air.

If the air in your house is dirty enough to cause your health problems if not filtered, it would be equally harmful to any other family members sleeping in the house.
Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
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