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Can SleepyHead Be Trusted?
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Galactus Offline

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Machine: Phillips Respironics System One PRS1 DS760P Auto BiPAP
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
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Humidifier: System One Heated Humidifier + Climate Line
CPAP Pressure: E/I 13/20 PS 4/7 BiFlex 3
CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic

Other Comments: Sleep can be a good thing.

Sex: Male
Location: USA

Post: #11
RE: Can SleepyHead Be Trusted?
Just curious, as he said he puts no stock in anything other than bla bla bla did he actually even bother to look at the data on the card at all? I only ask because the last time I was told that I listened to all of it, and then was told ok, you're good to go, have a nice day. At which point I said, well I can understand you're not liking the other software or not using it but you haven't even looked at my data at all so what's the point?? He wasn't too happy with me.

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11-20-2014 04:13 PM
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Lambsydoats Offline

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Machine: ResMed AirSense 10 AutoSet for Her
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed AirFit ™ P10 Nasal Pillow
Humidifier: AirSense 10 AutoSet for Her-integrated
CPAP Pressure: 8
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Initially: AHI=52; 2nd: AHI=18; CPAP 11-10-14; as of 8-18-15: AHI consistently under 5.0

Sex: Female
Location: Southwest Michigan, USA

Post: #12
RE: Can SleepyHead Be Trusted?
These are very interesting comments.

I REALLY like SleepyHead, so I'm happy to hear that it isn't a bunch of fluff. Thank you.

One thing the PA said when I asked him why I had centrals without pressure (because he kept talking about how pressure causes centrals) on my 2nd take-home test is that "the machine can't tell." He said they aren't advanced enough to always be able to discern a central from an obstructive.

I don't know--I suppose that's true. But then is the reverse true too? That some of what's labeled by these machines as obstructive are actually centrals? Scary thought.

I'm a researcher at heart, and like to know as much as a layperson can know about things that interest me. When places like Mayo Clinic say things like, "Central sleep apnea is a serious medical condition" and "Some complications include...Cardiovascular problems. In addition, sudden drops in blood oxygen levels that occur during central sleep apnea may adversely affect heart health. If there's underlying heart disease, these repeated multiple episodes of low blood oxygen (hypoxia or hypoxemia) worsen prognosis and increase the risk of abnormal heart rhythms," I feel justified in my desire to know more. As I told the PA yesterday, heart disease runs in my family on both sides, and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Lamb

To all, to each, a fair good-night,
And pleasing dreams, and slumbers light.
Scott—Marmion. L’Envoy. To the Reader.

Diagnosed with OSA September 2014
AHI=18
Lowest SpO2: 79%
11-20-2014 06:02 PM
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Lambsydoats Offline

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Posts: 117
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Machine: ResMed AirSense 10 AutoSet for Her
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed AirFit ™ P10 Nasal Pillow
Humidifier: AirSense 10 AutoSet for Her-integrated
CPAP Pressure: 8
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Initially: AHI=52; 2nd: AHI=18; CPAP 11-10-14; as of 8-18-15: AHI consistently under 5.0

Sex: Female
Location: Southwest Michigan, USA

Post: #13
RE: Can SleepyHead Be Trusted?
(11-20-2014 04:13 PM)Galactus Wrote:  Just curious, as he said he puts no stock in anything other than bla bla bla did he actually even bother to look at the data on the card at all? I only ask because the last time I was told that I listened to all of it, and then was told ok, you're good to go, have a nice day. At which point I said, well I can understand you're not liking the other software or not using it but you haven't even looked at my data at all so what's the point?? He wasn't too happy with me.

Well, that's also strange. I was asked over and over if I had my SD card with me. I didn't for two reasons:
  1. I had been trying to get in to see him since my titration was done because of questions I had about the results. I'd only been on the CPAP 9 days as of yesterday, and wasn't even thinking about discussing that yet.
  2. I knew (thought) they were getting the data wirelessly, so why would I also take the card with me? Ever?


It's obvious this guy isn't interested in learning anything, especially not from mere mortals like patients. He's all about imparting his knowledge, despite the fact that I keep up my end of the conversation well enough for it to be obvious that I am already an educated participant in my healthcare (gasp!).

Lamb

To all, to each, a fair good-night,
And pleasing dreams, and slumbers light.
Scott—Marmion. L’Envoy. To the Reader.

Diagnosed with OSA September 2014
AHI=18
Lowest SpO2: 79%
11-20-2014 06:06 PM
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Galactus Offline

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Posts: 1,385
Joined: Jan 2014

Machine: Phillips Respironics System One PRS1 DS760P Auto BiPAP
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Airfit P10 Nasal Pillow
Humidifier: System One Heated Humidifier + Climate Line
CPAP Pressure: E/I 13/20 PS 4/7 BiFlex 3
CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic

Other Comments: Sleep can be a good thing.

Sex: Male
Location: USA

Post: #14
RE: Can SleepyHead Be Trusted?
(11-20-2014 06:06 PM)Lambsydoats Wrote:  Well, that's also strange. I was asked over and over if I had my SD card with me. I didn't for two reasons:
  1. I had been trying to get in to see him since my titration was done because of questions I had about the results. I'd only been on the CPAP 9 days as of yesterday, and wasn't even thinking about discussing that yet.
  2. I knew (thought) they were getting the data wirelessly, so why would I also take the card with me? Ever?


It's obvious this guy isn't interested in learning anything, especially not from mere mortals like patients. He's all about imparting his knowledge, despite the fact that I keep up my end of the conversation well enough for it to be obvious that I am already an educated participant in my healthcare (gasp!).

Lamb

Believe me when I say it isn't strange at all. They are still prescribing bricks to people (like me), so what are they going to ask for the sd card for? There's no useful information on it anyway.... So at the end of the day when a guy says I hate Fords and I don't trust GM, and you find out he drives neither nor has he ever what are you left to think?

As to CA OA and all the rest, here's the real skinny, sure CA or OA may be better or worse, but if your AHI is under 5 it is considered controlled so does it matter which you are having? Especially if like most of us you are using the data to achieve less than 1-2 AHI on a daily basis? I don't really think so. Sure if you were untreated one might be worse than the other, or if on treatment you were still having high numbers of one or the other there might be additional examining required to see why, but if you are treated you are treated. And under 5 is treated, so I am really not going to worry about it too much, just my thoughts YMMV.

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Everyone knows something, together we could know everything.
11-20-2014 06:32 PM
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zonk Offline

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Post: #15
RE: Can SleepyHead Be Trusted?
Never mind about trusting SH, one of the sleep doctors on zonk team Dielaughing does not trust machine data either Coffee
(This post was last modified: 11-20-2014 07:14 PM by zonk.)
11-20-2014 07:13 PM
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archangle Offline
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CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead EncoreBasic

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Post: #16
RE: Can SleepyHead Be Trusted?
There's actually some deep philosophical questions here. Or maybe some practical scientific/engineering questions.

You can't even trust an in-lab PSG test. There can be mistakes. Different "scorers" will give different readings on the same PSG data. Hopefully, they will mostly disagree on the borderline readings.

A single night PSG test may miss a serious problem because it didn't happen that night because patients vary from night to night, or from disturbed sleep in the lab, no REM in the lab, different sleep position, different mask, different drinking/drugs, food, etc.

A home CPAP doesn't have an SpO2 oximeter, so it can't really measure hypopneas.

A home CPAP doesn't have a chest effort belt, so it can't reliably measure central vs. obstructive. PRS1, S9, and A10 probably make a pretty good "guess," though.

ResMed S9 machines discard data after 7 days, which causes some unsolvable mathematical problems with the 90% numbers like leak rate and pressure.

However, I don't think these things really matter that much. Think of it from an engineering or scientific standpoint. You are using tools to do things and make measurements. There's a certain degree of error and tolerance in any measurement you make. You have to learn to live with the tolerance of the measurements and processes you use.

In most cases for CPAP, you are dealing with big differences in the numbers for anything significant. Whether your AHI is 20 or 25 isn't really that important. If your pressure is 11 instead of 10, it doesn't matter that much, as long as you adjust the machine up and down as needed.

BTW, I think SleepyHead DOES "derive" some of the data it generates from the data that is recorded on the SD card. I think it calculates the running average "AHI" number used in the graphs and derives (perhaps) tidal volume and some others from the flow rate data.

Get the free SleepyHead software here.
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(This post was last modified: 11-20-2014 07:19 PM by archangle.)
11-20-2014 07:18 PM
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vsheline Online

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Post: #17
RE: Can SleepyHead Be Trusted?
(11-19-2014 09:57 PM)saltydawg2 Wrote:  Dr. is probably using software more detailed than the Rescan program you have.

Hi saltydawg2,

Actually, the ResScan product we use is the same one used by doctors. It is intended for use only by professionals, not users.

ResScan can be used to change the machine's settings, which is one reason why it is generally not sold to users. (It's a whole lot simpler to change settings using the Clinician Menu right on the machine, though.) When I asked, my Respiratory Therapist was able to sell me a copy of ResScan 3.11 with the proprietary S8 smart card reader he sold me about three years ago, but I think few therapists and doctors would sell ResScan to users.

Judging from the "SleepSeeker" program which ResMed has made available to plane old CPAP patients, ResMed apparently figures the only data users need to be concerned with is a few nightly statistics such as Usage Hours, average AHI, and Leak. Personally, I think ResMed is mistaken that users do not need to be able to access the detailed data. (Many patients would have no desire to do so, but I think users should have the ability to check the detailed data, if they are so inclined.)

Take care,
--- Vaughn

Membership in the Advisory Member group should not be understood as in any way implying medical expertise or qualification for advising Sleep Apnea patients concerning their treatment. The Advisory Member group provides advice and suggestions to Apnea Board administrators and staff on matters concerning Apnea Board operation and administrative policies - not on matters concerning treatment for Sleep Apnea. I think it is now too late to change the name of the group but I think Voting Member group would perhaps have been a more descriptive name for the group.
(This post was last modified: 11-21-2014 10:56 PM by vsheline.)
11-21-2014 12:12 AM
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vsheline Online

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Posts: 1,908
Joined: Jul 2012

Machine: S9 VPAP Adapt (USA Model# 36007, not better 36037 or 36067)
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F10 or SimPlus w/ 2Liners. MirageQuatro & Gecko gel pad
Humidifier: H5i
CPAP Pressure: 15 EPAP, PS 5-10
CPAP Software: ResScan

Other Comments: Marfan Syndrome, chronic bradycardia, occasional Cheyne-Stokes Respiration

Sex: Male
Location: California, USA

Post: #18
RE: Can SleepyHead Be Trusted?
(11-20-2014 06:06 PM)Lambsydoats Wrote:  I was asked over and over if I had my SD card with me. I didn't for two reasons:
  1. I had been trying to get in to see him since my titration was done because of questions I had about the results. I'd only been on the CPAP 9 days as of yesterday, and wasn't even thinking about discussing that yet.
  2. I knew (thought) they were getting the data wirelessly, so why would I also take the card with me? Ever?

Hi Lamb,

They may have been interested in only the compliance data, but, on the other hand, giving them the benefit of a doubt, it is conceivable that they also wanted to look at the detailed data. (In my view, any good therapist or doctor would.)

I think I've read that the modem only sends statistical data (which I suppose would be the various settings and AHI, OAI, CAI, HI, etc, plus the Min, Median, 95 Percentile and Max values for various data streams like Leak, Pressure, Tidal Volume), and no detailed breath-by-breath data.

--- Vaughn

Membership in the Advisory Member group should not be understood as in any way implying medical expertise or qualification for advising Sleep Apnea patients concerning their treatment. The Advisory Member group provides advice and suggestions to Apnea Board administrators and staff on matters concerning Apnea Board operation and administrative policies - not on matters concerning treatment for Sleep Apnea. I think it is now too late to change the name of the group but I think Voting Member group would perhaps have been a more descriptive name for the group.
(This post was last modified: 11-21-2014 10:58 PM by vsheline.)
11-21-2014 12:28 AM
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Lambsydoats Offline

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Posts: 117
Joined: Oct 2014

Machine: ResMed AirSense 10 AutoSet for Her
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed AirFit ™ P10 Nasal Pillow
Humidifier: AirSense 10 AutoSet for Her-integrated
CPAP Pressure: 8
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Initially: AHI=52; 2nd: AHI=18; CPAP 11-10-14; as of 8-18-15: AHI consistently under 5.0

Sex: Female
Location: Southwest Michigan, USA

Post: #19
RE: Can SleepyHead Be Trusted?
Quote:Hi Lamb,

I think I've read that the modem only sends statistical data (which I suppose would be the various settings and AHI, OAI, CAI, HI, etc, plus the Min, Median, 95 Percentile and Max values for various data streams like Leak, Pressure, Tidal Volume), and no detailed breath-by-breath data.

Oh. Well then it makes sense they kept asking for the SD.

Gee. Wouldn't another option to have asked to see my report from SH? After explaining to the PA all the details, you'd think his interest would have been piqued. MINE would have, were the roles reversed.

Thanks for the insight, Vaughn.

Lamb

To all, to each, a fair good-night,
And pleasing dreams, and slumbers light.
Scott—Marmion. L’Envoy. To the Reader.

Diagnosed with OSA September 2014
AHI=18
Lowest SpO2: 79%
11-22-2014 05:44 PM
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Galactus Offline

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Posts: 1,385
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Machine: Phillips Respironics System One PRS1 DS760P Auto BiPAP
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Airfit P10 Nasal Pillow
Humidifier: System One Heated Humidifier + Climate Line
CPAP Pressure: E/I 13/20 PS 4/7 BiFlex 3
CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic

Other Comments: Sleep can be a good thing.

Sex: Male
Location: USA

Post: #20
RE: Can SleepyHead Be Trusted?
Lamb, you take this from the wrong perspective, you as an individual want to learn anything new you can because you are likely a normal person. On the other hand the PA has been trained to know everything, and does, so there is no reason to attempt to learn anything new, certainly not from you, or sleepyhead, mere mortals, and some guys software program.....

Reminds me of the diabetes doctors, they all want everyone to keep a log of their blood sugar levels, and there are so many good electronic logs, BUT!!! OH NO!!! We can't read those, we aren't set up for that, they can be inaccurate..... and yet the guys chicken scratch in a log book, now that's gospel.

Ahhhhh if only stupidity was a crime with some form of punishment.

If everyone thinks alike, then someone isn't thinking.
Everyone knows something, together we could know everything.
11-22-2014 08:55 PM
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