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Chinese and Alternative Medicine for Sleep Apnoea
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Shastzi Offline

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Post: #11
RE: Chinese Medicine & Sleep Apnoea
Ah yes. I would very much like to read any independently funded white papers
on the subject of using Chinese techniques on apnea.

Wink

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08-15-2015 09:31 AM
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DocWils Offline

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Post: #12
RE: Chinese Medicine & Sleep Apnoea
We don't have any prejudices for or against TCM in our hospitals (can't speak for the US, or course) - if something works, we use it, so we are always interested in everything - so, if we tested it (we did, over many years), it has to stand up to a certain level of proof, and that is what we use. And we regularly consult with specialists in self deception to make sure any testing we do is clear and fair - we even consulted with the magician and debunker James Randi once (fascinating man, he is, too), on homeopathy and self deception in research bias, and he taught us a LOT. So, when I say there is no evidence that we find for the efficacy of something, I mean it. However absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it certainly does not strengthen the case for a given form of treatment. I have supervised more than one doctoral thesis in various alternative or complementary "medicine" techniques, and mostly, they do not stand up to hard scrutiny. In medicine we are interested in what actually helps people, so if sitting in a sweat lodge helps someone, I will tell them to do it (it does help in certain cases, just as blood letting does, for a certain illness, but it is useless and even dangerous in treating other illnesses or as a prophylaxis). If I say it is rubbish or hokum, it comes from a place of confidence that it is so. If I am presented with compelling evidence to the contrary, then I happily change my opinion. So far, what I have said above on TCM stands - for OSA there is no evidence that it works.
08-15-2015 10:38 AM
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C-PAP Offline

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Post: #13
RE: Chinese Medicine & Sleep Apnoea
(08-15-2015 10:38 AM)DocWils Wrote:  We don't have any prejudices for or against TCM in our hospitals (can't speak for the US, or course) - if something works, we use it, so we are always interested in everything - so, if we tested it (we did, over many years), it has to stand up to a certain level of proof, and that is what we use. And we regularly consult with specialists in self deception to make sure any testing we do is clear and fair - we even consulted with the magician and debunker James Randi once (fascinating man, he is, too), on homeopathy and self deception in research bias, and he taught us a LOT. So, when I say there is no evidence that we find for the efficacy of something, I mean it. However absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it certainly does not strengthen the case for a given form of treatment. I have supervised more than one doctoral thesis in various alternative or complementary "medicine" techniques, and mostly, they do not stand up to hard scrutiny. In medicine we are interested in what actually helps people, so if sitting in a sweat lodge helps someone, I will tell them to do it (it does help in certain cases, just as blood letting does, for a certain illness, but it is useless and even dangerous in treating other illnesses or as a prophylaxis). If I say it is rubbish or hokum, it comes from a place of confidence that it is so. If I am presented with compelling evidence to the contrary, then I happily change my opinion. So far, what I have said above on TCM stands - for OSA there is no evidence that it works.

The margin of benefit over placebo in a randomized double blind trial for a new drug to be proven effective and licenced is small. A lot of the effect of a medication, and even a visit to the doctor, is placebo action. Western medicine is still very much an art form (as well as a science). As you point out …suggestion is a powerful thing. It strikes me that WCM might err more on the art side, than the science side, but regardless it still might be a very powerful treatment. With all these things, osteopathy, chiropractic treatment, even physiotherapy, it is almost impossible to scientifically evaluate these treatments on a randomised double blind cross over basis.

The science of medicine is still very much in its infancy I think. I have a western medical training as well (UK) practising as a GP in Canada. I keep an open mind, and like you say, if someone finds something helpful, I’m all for it, because there's a lot that we can't treat and a lot we don't understand.
08-15-2015 01:34 PM
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C-PAP Offline

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Post: #14
RE: Chinese Medicine & Sleep Apnoea
(08-15-2015 01:34 PM)C-PAP Wrote:  
(08-15-2015 10:38 AM)DocWils Wrote:  We don't have any prejudices for or against TCM in our hospitals (can't speak for the US, or course) - if something works, we use it, so we are always interested in everything - so, if we tested it (we did, over many years), it has to stand up to a certain level of proof, and that is what we use. And we regularly consult with specialists in self deception to make sure any testing we do is clear and fair - we even consulted with the magician and debunker James Randi once (fascinating man, he is, too), on homeopathy and self deception in research bias, and he taught us a LOT. So, when I say there is no evidence that we find for the efficacy of something, I mean it. However absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it certainly does not strengthen the case for a given form of treatment. I have supervised more than one doctoral thesis in various alternative or complementary "medicine" techniques, and mostly, they do not stand up to hard scrutiny. In medicine we are interested in what actually helps people, so if sitting in a sweat lodge helps someone, I will tell them to do it (it does help in certain cases, just as blood letting does, for a certain illness, but it is useless and even dangerous in treating other illnesses or as a prophylaxis). If I say it is rubbish or hokum, it comes from a place of confidence that it is so. If I am presented with compelling evidence to the contrary, then I happily change my opinion. So far, what I have said above on TCM stands - for OSA there is no evidence that it works.

The margin of benefit over placebo in a randomized double blind trial for a new drug to be proven effective and licenced is small. A lot of the effect of a medication, and even a visit to the doctor, is placebo action. Western medicine is still very much an art form (as well as a science). As you point out …suggestion is a powerful thing. It strikes me that WCM might err more on the art side, than the science side, but regardless it still might be a very powerful treatment. With all these things, osteopathy, chiropractic treatment, even physiotherapy, it is almost impossible to scientifically evaluate these treatments on a randomised double blind cross over basis.

The science of medicine is still very much in its infancy I think. I have a western medical training as well (UK) practising as a GP in Canada. I keep an open mind, and like you say, if someone finds something helpful, I’m all for it, because there's a lot that we can't treat and a lot we don't understand.

Um WCM? I meant TCM, but maybe western Chinese medicine is a thing too Smile
08-15-2015 02:40 PM
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DocWils Offline

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Post: #15
RE: Chinese Medicine & Sleep Apnoea
(08-15-2015 02:40 PM)C-PAP Wrote:  Um WCM? I meant TCM, but maybe western Chinese medicine is a thing too Smile


I'm beginning to think so, given that there is a TCM practice on practically every corner I pass in Zurich..... a recent survey here showed that more than half the practitioners aren't even Chinese - a LOT of Germans and Swiss and French.
08-15-2015 03:29 PM
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zonk Offline

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Post: #16
RE: Chinese Medicine & Sleep Apnoea
Whenever hear of Chinese medicine, acupuncture and herbs comes to my mind

As for Chinese medicine and sleep apnea, there are CPAP machines made in China
ResMed already sued one Chinese company for stealing their secrets or something of that nature
08-15-2015 03:38 PM
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DocWils Offline

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Post: #17
RE: Chinese Medicine & Sleep Apnoea
(08-15-2015 03:38 PM)zonk Wrote:  Whenever hear of Chinese medicine, acupuncture and herbs comes to my mind

As for Chinese medicine and sleep apnea, there are CPAP machines made in China
ResMed already sued one Chinese company for stealing their secrets or something of that nature

Aaaaaaand, what else is new?

My uncle was a clothing manufacturer, one of the first to get stuff made in China instead of at home, and he told me that it was always a calculated risk - once the design was sent, it was almost always immediately copied and a dozen Chinese firms would put out almost identical stuff to what he had contracted them to make, to be sold either in the domestic market there or as cut price copies in the West.

Everyone has their electronics made in China - so why is it a surprise that someone simply copied ResMed's designs and "trade secrets"? That is what they do, believe me. The big thing is often just how well they do it. There are Chinese forgeries of Swiss watches and German motorcycles that are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing, and just as well made, sometimes even better.
08-15-2015 04:58 PM
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me50 Offline

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Post: #18
RE: Chinese Medicine & Sleep Apnoea
I wish insurance would cover homeopathic treatment. I choose to pay for those supplements out of pocket even though I can get pharmaceuticals for very inexpensive, sometimes free, through my insurance.

I just don't want to take pharmaceuticals that are full of who knows what kind of crapola.

Just my opinion and what is right for me.
08-15-2015 08:24 PM
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DeepBreathing Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Chinese Medicine & Sleep Apnoea
(08-15-2015 08:24 PM)me50 Wrote:  I wish insurance would cover homeopathic treatment. I choose to pay for those supplements out of pocket even though I can get pharmaceuticals for very inexpensive, sometimes free, through my insurance.

I just don't want to take pharmaceuticals that are full of who knows what kind of crapola.

Just my opinion and what is right for me.

Unfortunately, insurance does pay for homeopathy here in Australia and I wish they wouldn't. Homeothapy is pure unadulterated bulldust. They are charging you a fortune to drink water! It's the biggest con job going. Study after study has demonstrated that homeopathic "remedies" have no benefit over placebo.

https://ama.com.au/ausmed/not-even-trace-evidence-homeopathy
https://ama.com.au/ausmed/homeopathy-cops-concentrated-dose-doubt


Every dollar the insurance funds spend on homeopathy and associated "complementary" medicines is a dollar not available to spend on tested and proven treatments.

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08-15-2015 09:44 PM
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me50 Offline

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Post: #20
RE: Chinese Medicine & Sleep Apnoea
DB

well personally I would rather take lavender gel caps than xanax and that is the type of things that I'm speaking of
08-15-2015 09:58 PM
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