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Could DME's and Doctors Really be THIS STOOPID???
#1
Actually, I guess it wouldn't be that surprising if they are this stupid. Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. Especially when it's profitable stupidity.

Someone posted that they called their DME about their brick CPAP machine and the DME told them their data was good, that they had no apneas at all.

As I say, "if it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check for yourself."

However, there's a lot of stupidity out there. I wonder if some DME's and doctors look at the reports from brick CPAP machines, see the compliance data and assume because it doesn't show any apneas, there are none. After all, they've probably seen reports from full data CPAP machines and may say, "hey, it doesn't show any apneas, so there must not be any."

I wonder how clear it is on ResScan and Encore that there's no apnea data because the machine doesn't collect it, or does a report on a brick CPAP look like the report on a data capable machine for a patient without any apneas.
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If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
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#2
(06-24-2014, 05:00 PM)archangle Wrote: However, there's a lot of stupidity out there. I wonder if some DME's and doctors look at the reports from brick CPAP machines, see the compliance data and assume because it doesn't show any apneas, there are none. After all, they've probably seen reports from full data CPAP machines and may say, "hey, it doesn't show any apneas, so there must not be any."
I wonder what an Encore report from a DS 260 machine looks like.

I do know this: If you are using a PR 460 or PR 660 (full efficacy data fixed pressure CPAP and BiPAP respectively), the Detailed Data report shows a FLI = 0.0 night after night after night because the PR 460 and 660 don't bother to record the Flow Limitation data. Really stupid decision by PR's Encore programming team if you ask me.

The PR 560 and PR 660 will record FL only when they're in Auto mode. So if you're using one of these machines in fixed pressure mode, the Encore reported FLI = 0.0 night after night after night.

If you ask me, it borders on criminal that PR's Encore program reports an FL = 0.0 when there is NO Flow Limitation data to report.

Anybody out there have an SD card with data from any of these PR Bricks: 150, 220, 250, or 260? If you don't have Encore, I'd be happy to import your brick's SD card data into my copy of Encore Pro to see what it looks like.

Quote:I wonder how clear it is on ResScan and Encore that there's no apnea data because the machine doesn't collect it, or does a report on a brick CPAP look like the report on a data capable machine for a patient without any apneas.
That's a really good question. Anybody have a full Encore or ResScan report from a brick? Anybody with a brick willing to create such a report or send their SD card's contents to me so that I can generate the report?

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#3
(06-24-2014, 05:11 PM)robysue Wrote: I wonder what an Encore report from a DS 260 machine looks like.
I recall someone said, the report shows colored graphs about compliance and other graphs, maybe large leak or something Dont-know

As for the original question, beyond belief, why manufacturers peddle such machines and call it 'medical equipments'
Imagine if you use heart monitor and does not shows any heart reading or diabetic using sugar meter does not shows any readings or apneac using CPAP does not shows any efficacy data readings
Ignorance might be a bliss but not when comes to medical equipments
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#4
s/stupid/dishonest/

yes.
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#5
(06-24-2014, 05:47 PM)zonk Wrote:
(06-24-2014, 05:11 PM)robysue Wrote: I wonder what an Encore report from a DS 260 machine looks like.
I recall someone said, the report shows colored graphs about compliance and other graphs, maybe large leak or something Dont-know

As for the original question, beyond belief, why manufacturers peddle such machines and call it 'medical equipments'
Imagine if you use heart monitor and does not shows any heart reading or diabetic using sugar meter does not shows any readings or apneac using CPAP does not shows any efficacy data readings
Ignorance might be a bliss but not when comes to medical equipments
I agree.

However, it's clear that the manufacturers do NOT regard us, the patients, as their customers. Their customers are the DMEs, and hence, they make the bricks because that's what the DMEs want to stock.


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#6
(06-24-2014, 05:00 PM)archangle Wrote: I wonder if some DME's and doctors look at the reports from brick CPAP machines, see the compliance data and assume because it doesn't show any apneas, there are none. After all, they've probably seen reports from full data CPAP machines and may say, "hey, it doesn't show any apneas, so there must not be any."

That's pretty stoopid, alright. If there are no apneas you'll see a AHI of 0.0, not an absence of a report of a AHI.

And if the AHI really is zero for several nights, your first suspicion is that there's something wrong with the data.

Could you imagine someone making this kind of mistake in another field? "Gee boss, when I looked at the plans they didn't say anything about a gas line being run through this part of the building so I assumed there wasn't one." Boom!

Things like this happen all the time. To stoopid people!
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#7
(06-24-2014, 05:47 PM)zonk Wrote: I recall someone said, the report shows colored graphs about compliance and other graphs, maybe large leak or something Dont-know
No large or small leak, just compliance data and compliance meter ... breathing detection (whatever that means)
http://www.healthcare.philips.com/pwc_hc...tfinal.pdf

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#8
(06-24-2014, 09:06 PM)Sleepster Wrote:
(06-24-2014, 05:00 PM)archangle Wrote: I wonder if some DME's and doctors look at the reports from brick CPAP machines, see the compliance data and assume because it doesn't show any apneas, there are none. After all, they've probably seen reports from full data CPAP machines and may say, "hey, it doesn't show any apneas, so there must not be any."

<snip>

Could you imagine someone making this kind of mistake in another field? "Gee boss, when I looked at the plans they didn't say anything about a gas line being run through this part of the building so I assumed there wasn't one." Boom!

Things like this happen all the time. To stoopid people!

Things like this happen all the time to smarter people. "There's a 20 foot long 'box' on the floor that can't be moved - so we'll build the new giant water line right next to it." But the engineer(s) looking at their computer screens either didn't wonder what the 'box' was, what went in and out of it, or why it couldn't be moved; or if they did, nobody was going to let them route the water line further away at even more expense, for no "obvious" reason...

The water line location has been redesigned, again; and if it hasn't finally been done right, someone (ahem) will have to go scream bloody murder, again...

Abstraction of information tends to encourage loss of significant information. And a brick guarantees both. Good luck with getting something better.
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#9
(06-24-2014, 05:00 PM)archangle Wrote: Actually, I guess it wouldn't be that surprising if they are this stupid. Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. Especially when it's profitable stupidity.

Someone posted that they called their DME about their brick CPAP machine and the DME told them their data was good, that they had no apneas at all.

As I say, "if it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check for yourself."

However, there's a lot of stupidity out there. I wonder if some DME's and doctors look at the reports from brick CPAP machines, see the compliance data and assume because it doesn't show any apneas, there are none. After all, they've probably seen reports from full data CPAP machines and may say, "hey, it doesn't show any apneas, so there must not be any."

I wonder how clear it is on ResScan and Encore that there's no apnea data because the machine doesn't collect it, or does a report on a brick CPAP look like the report on a data capable machine for a patient without any apneas.

You are treating 2nd and 3rd hand information as "fact". Every time a story gets retold it gets further from the truth. This is exacerbated by the gap in understanding between a provider and a patient.

A "good RT" is not just one that know's what they are doing, they are good at explaining things to patients so the patient understands what is being said.

I would guess that 90% of the time a patient thinks they are smarter than their provider, they are wrong. Now this very well could be one of those 10% instances. But to "assume" that....well, you know the rest.
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#10
Just an example of arrogant stupidity.
About 35 years ago I was the self self appointed sidewalk supervisor on the construction of a new facility for a company I was working for. There was a 20 X 30 ft office space upstairs at the end of a hall. I asked the framer if there should be a doorway framed at the end of the hall. He said he knew what he was doing, don't bother me. So I went to the construction superintendent and finally convinced him to come have a look. He told the framer to take down the blank wall and frame the doorway. That was maybe the hundredth time I had bugged the super about details that Eire didn't match the prints or logic. They didn't like me much.
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