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Dangers of Using a CPAP Machine
#51
(10-09-2014, 06:07 PM)wheaton4prez Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 05:49 PM)becker44a Wrote: Best luck and wishes on your journey.

Thank you. This is really helpful.

I was already leaning toward the S9 Autoset based on articles/reviews here. What if they say that option is not available through them? Do I have to go back to my doctor to refer to someone else that carries it? What is a reasonable cost I should expect to pay for that model? The insurance company gave me an "estimated price" I would pay which implies that they have some kind of structured payout for the machines.

I'll try to get the sleep study data. But, I suspect that the device never got sent in and they couldn't figure out which one was mine after I started calling about it. I might be able to get the old data from a few years ago...

Hi wheaton4prez,
I got my machine in January this year. The DME told me "We've moved away from that brand. I said "Can you order it?" He said they could but it would take some time. I said "I'm gonna live with this thing for the next 5 years, so I don't care if it takes an extra day or week or whatever". So I got my S9 Autoset in spite of a reluctant DME. I just needed to be firm and persistant.

Your Doctor needs to write a prescription for you that reads something like "CPAP unit set to pressure 10 to 20, must deliver full efficacy data, Lifetime requirement. Mask to be Patient choice" or words to that effect. The pressures aren't important except that there needs to be a range, not a single number. This prescription can be used to acquire a unit from any source, thru your insurance or not. By the way, you need a hard copy or .pdf of your prescription for a number of reasons.

If you look at the top of any forum page, there ls a link to "Supplier List". Supplier#2 carries "gently used" and "new open box" units, and when I checked their inventory, I saw S9 Autoset w/ H5i heated humidifier units ranging from around $500 to around $900 (no mask included). My Simplus mask cost around $100 from Supplier #26, who has a mask trial policy where you can try a mask for up to 30 days, and return it for a full refund for any reason. When I was looking at masks online, it seemed that few masks were more than $150, and many were less.

If the DME you're talking to now really won't cooperate, talk to your insurance and ask for the names of all DMEs that are "in network" for them, and start calling.

Regarding the ClimateLine heated tubing option, I don't have or use it myself, but both my sisters do, and it has solved significant "rainout" issues for them (condensation collecting in the tubing). Others here have also spoken highly of this option, especially in colder weather. All the S9 machines with H5i and a 90-watt power supply support the ClimateLine tubing. If you are interested in this, MAKE SURE the power supply is the 90-watt version, as there is a lower capacity one that can't handle the ClimateLine tubing.

Regarding the sleep study data, hopefully, you will be able to get something, even from a few years back. You never know what may be useful.

Hope this helps.
A.Becker
PAPing in NE Ohio, with a pack of Cairn terriers
#52
(10-09-2014, 05:54 PM)wheaton4prez Wrote: From my perspective, if doctors can determine if someone has sleep apnea with such a high success rate that the sleep center has never seen a case of someone passing the test without apnea, having sleep study centers at all only confuses the issue.

There are a number of reasons they don't do that.

This is a case where the doctors are lacking hubris. They're not sure enough to call it on "gut feel."
The doctors haven't really come to grips with the idea that they're missing a lot of their apnea suffering patients.
Patients are unwilling to accept the idea they have apnea and think it's just a moneygrubbing, treehugging, new age nonsense scheme.
Insurance won't pay without it in most cases.
The sleep study may find details about the treatment, such as centrals, or things like heart problems, restless leg syndrome, etc.
You could put the patient on a data capable CPAP and use it as a sort of micro home sleep test, but that requires more human intervention and isn't nearly as definitive.
They need to spread the wealth and generate revenue for sleep labs.
Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
#53
(08-23-2013, 08:35 AM)DocWils Wrote: Sorry, but cannot sanction the idea of CPAP devices without an Rx. CPAP is potentially harmful if not used for the purpose it is designed for and correctly adjusted, like any medical device or drug.

If you do not have apnoea, it provides no help and may possibly harm, if you do have apnoea (well, how would you know you do without correct testing?) then it has to be the right type and adjustment for your type of apnoea or it will be of no benefit. Hearing aids are not sold over the counter because unless properly adjusted they can harm your hearing, eyeglasses the same. PAP devices are rather expensive machines that are designed for a specific ailment, and no person coming in off the street who has not first been properly tested will be able to correctly assess if they even need one or not.

There is a further reason for the Rx. It is to protect you from cheap knock offs, money making scams and most of all from stores trying to cash in by selling discounted devices to a public who don't need it, but will respond to advertising and in store come ons to buy them although they have no need of them and no one in the store is qualified to assess if they do or not. This way, it remains controlled and prevents such exploitation.

This may be a sore subject with me right now but I have a question. My DME nor my Doctors have done more than blink blankly at me when asked and I doubt you will either.

A cpap machine is a fan blowing what really is in reality low pressure room air over water in some cases at its max output. Yet it needs a prescription and anyone that cant sleep during the all mighty sleep tests will never get their insurance to pay or help pay for one. Doenst matter if they have a partner they sleep with night after night that hears then stop breathing punches them watches them gasp and struggle, get up with blue nails and lips half functioning, that is telling the Doc all that. Nope gotta have the little test or no go. Or pay for it all yourself.

Now my question. Compared to a fire service SCBA, the total sealing mask that will NOT let you breathe if you run out of air in a toxic enviornment, the higher constant pressure it delivers to make sure no toxic gases get inside the mask, and the fire fighters ability to wring it up or down as he needs too, a cpap machine is a toy.

Yet no medical folks are over seeing or prescribing those or setting them. Or even refilling the tanks. And I have yet to hear of a Firefighter being adversly affected by and SCBA due to the pressures. Run out of air in a burning building your toast yeah but the pressures have never hurt anyone.

They are higher and constant and Firefighting aint sleeping trust me.
So if CPAP machines are so dangerous they need constant highly trained and expensive medical pros to dole them out and over see them, why not the SCBA unit? HUMMMM????



#54
(10-10-2014, 01:13 AM)Ghost1958 Wrote: This may be a sore subject with me right now but I have a question. My DME nor my Doctors have done more than blink blankly at me when asked and I doubt you will either.

A cpap machine is a fan blowing what really is in reality low pressure room air over water in some cases at its max output. Yet it needs a prescription and anyone that cant sleep during the all mighty sleep tests will never get their insurance to pay or help pay for one. Doenst matter if they have a partner they sleep with night after night that hears then stop breathing punches them watches them gasp and struggle, get up with blue nails and lips half functioning, that is telling the Doc all that. Nope gotta have the little test or no go. Or pay for it all yourself.

Now my question. Compared to a fire service SCBA, the total sealing mask that will NOT let you breathe if you run out of air in a toxic enviornment, the higher constant pressure it delivers to make sure no toxic gases get inside the mask, and the fire fighters ability to wring it up or down as he needs too, a cpap machine is a toy.

Yet no medical folks are over seeing or prescribing those or setting them. Or even refilling the tanks. And I have yet to hear of a Firefighter being adversly affected by and SCBA due to the pressures. Run out of air in a burning building your toast yeah but the pressures have never hurt anyone.

They are higher and constant and Firefighting aint sleeping trust me.
So if CPAP machines are so dangerous they need constant highly trained and expensive medical pros to dole them out and over see them, why not the SCBA unit? HUMMMM????

SCBA devices are considered to be dangerous by all the agencies who use them. I haven't been directly involved, but I'm pretty sure you have to take a class, be certified, periodically retrained and recertified, etc. Equipment is checked on a regular basis. There isn't a prescription, but there's a process involved to insure safety (or at least, paperwork to CYA). There are lots of OSHA regulations. You don't allow someone to just pick up SCBA and use it.

I wonder if you can just go to your local safety supply store and buy SCBA gear, or if you have to have some sort of certification like you do for SCUBA gear.

You only wear SCBA when you're going into an environment where there's already a hazard of some kind.

You don't usually wear SCBA 8 hours a day every day.

You aren't supposed to sleep with it on. Part of the assumption is that if the SCBA fails or causes problems, you'll be awake and can do something about it.

Google SCBA deaths and you see lots of horror stories. Google SCBA training and SCBA certification for more info on the processes involved.

Firefighters are worried about dying from the smoke if their SCBA fails. They're not usually that concerned about SCBA harming them directly.
Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
#55
(10-10-2014, 06:12 AM)archangle Wrote:
(10-10-2014, 01:13 AM)Ghost1958 Wrote: This may be a sore subject with me right now but I have a question. My DME nor my Doctors have done more than blink blankly at me when asked and I doubt you will either.

A cpap machine is a fan blowing what really is in reality low pressure room air over water in some cases at its max output. Yet it needs a prescription and anyone that cant sleep during the all mighty sleep tests will never get their insurance to pay or help pay for one. Doenst matter if they have a partner they sleep with night after night that hears then stop breathing punches them watches them gasp and struggle, get up with blue nails and lips half functioning, that is telling the Doc all that. Nope gotta have the little test or no go. Or pay for it all yourself.

Now my question. Compared to a fire service SCBA, the total sealing mask that will NOT let you breathe if you run out of air in a toxic enviornment, the higher constant pressure it delivers to make sure no toxic gases get inside the mask, and the fire fighters ability to wring it up or down as he needs too, a cpap machine is a toy.

Yet no medical folks are over seeing or prescribing those or setting them. Or even refilling the tanks. And I have yet to hear of a Firefighter being adversly affected by and SCBA due to the pressures. Run out of air in a burning building your toast yeah but the pressures have never hurt anyone.

They are higher and constant and Firefighting aint sleeping trust me.
So if CPAP machines are so dangerous they need constant highly trained and expensive medical pros to dole them out and over see them, why not the SCBA unit? HUMMMM????

SCBA devices are considered to be dangerous by all the agencies who use them. I haven't been directly involved, but I'm pretty sure you have to take a class, be certified, periodically retrained and recertified, etc. Equipment is checked on a regular basis. There isn't a prescription, but there's a process involved to insure safety (or at least, paperwork to CYA). There are lots of OSHA regulations. You don't allow someone to just pick up SCBA and use it.

I wonder if you can just go to your local safety supply store and buy SCBA gear, or if you have to have some sort of certification like you do for SCUBA gear.

You only wear SCBA when you're going into an environment where there's already a hazard of some kind.

You don't usually wear SCBA 8 hours a day every day.

You aren't supposed to sleep with it on. Part of the assumption is that if the SCBA fails or causes problems, you'll be awake and can do something about it.

Google SCBA deaths and you see lots of horror stories. Google SCBA training and SCBA certification for more info on the processes involved.

Firefighters are worried about dying from the smoke if their SCBA fails. They're not usually that concerned about SCBA harming them directly.

I was certified and used SCBA on search and rescue entry teams on house fires as well as being one of the first 9 of 24 to successfully make it onto one of two or our states Haz Mat response teams. Containment , rescue and command and control. Use of all level Hazmat suits and equipment. And practical use of both in the field.

Im intimately aware of the training which for SCBA consists of being shown how to put it on turn it on seal the mask and what the alarm sounds like when you have 5 min or air left to haul butt or croak. And that is about it other than training on blacked out smoke buildings on your knees with a partner looking for improvises "victims".

Firefighters have been known to be trapped and have extra tanks to switch to lowered to them and have slept with SCBA. Though not for 8 hours at a time of course.

If there was any danger from SCBA pressures you can bet guys that are already sticking themselves in environments where a wiff of he wrong thing is the end they would be raising kain about it.

There isnt. Not sitting or dragging hundred lb hoses around, and all the rest wearing one. Its sort of hard for me to buy into a Cpap or apap machine hurting anyone unless you hit them in the head with it. Other than giving them gas occasionally.



#56
(10-09-2014, 11:05 PM)becker44a Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 06:07 PM)wheaton4prez Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 05:49 PM)becker44a Wrote: Best luck and wishes on your journey.

Thank you. This is really helpful.

I was already leaning toward the S9 Autoset based on articles/reviews here. What if they say that option is not available through them? Do I have to go back to my doctor to refer to someone else that carries it? What is a reasonable cost I should expect to pay for that model? The insurance company gave me an "estimated price" I would pay which implies that they have some kind of structured payout for the machines.

I'll try to get the sleep study data. But, I suspect that the device never got sent in and they couldn't figure out which one was mine after I started calling about it. I might be able to get the old data from a few years ago...

Hi wheaton4prez,
I got my machine in January this year. The DME told me "We've moved away from that brand. I said "Can you order it?" He said they could but it would take some time. I said "I'm gonna live with this thing for the next 5 years, so I don't care if it takes an extra day or week or whatever". So I got my S9 Autoset in spite of a reluctant DME. I just needed to be firm and persistant.

Your Doctor needs to write a prescription for you that reads something like "CPAP unit set to pressure 10 to 20, must deliver full efficacy data, Lifetime requirement. Mask to be Patient choice" or words to that effect. The pressures aren't important except that there needs to be a range, not a single number. This prescription can be used to acquire a unit from any source, thru your insurance or not. By the way, you need a hard copy or .pdf of your prescription for a number of reasons.

If you look at the top of any forum page, there ls a link to "Supplier List". Supplier#2 carries "gently used" and "new open box" units, and when I checked their inventory, I saw S9 Autoset w/ H5i heated humidifier units ranging from around $500 to around $900 (no mask included). My Simplus mask cost around $100 from Supplier #26, who has a mask trial policy where you can try a mask for up to 30 days, and return it for a full refund for any reason. When I was looking at masks online, it seemed that few masks were more than $150, and many were less.

If the DME you're talking to now really won't cooperate, talk to your insurance and ask for the names of all DMEs that are "in network" for them, and start calling.

Regarding the ClimateLine heated tubing option, I don't have or use it myself, but both my sisters do, and it has solved significant "rainout" issues for them (condensation collecting in the tubing). Others here have also spoken highly of this option, especially in colder weather. All the S9 machines with H5i and a 90-watt power supply support the ClimateLine tubing. If you are interested in this, MAKE SURE the power supply is the 90-watt version, as there is a lower capacity one that can't handle the ClimateLine tubing.

Regarding the sleep study data, hopefully, you will be able to get something, even from a few years back. You never know what may be useful.

Hope this helps.

(10-09-2014, 11:26 PM)archangle Wrote:
(10-09-2014, 05:54 PM)wheaton4prez Wrote: From my perspective, if doctors can determine if someone has sleep apnea with such a high success rate that the sleep center has never seen a case of someone passing the test without apnea, having sleep study centers at all only confuses the issue.

There are a number of reasons they don't do that.

This is a case where the doctors are lacking hubris. They're not sure enough to call it on "gut feel."
The doctors haven't really come to grips with the idea that they're missing a lot of their apnea suffering patients.
Patients are unwilling to accept the idea they have apnea and think it's just a moneygrubbing, treehugging, new age nonsense scheme.
Insurance won't pay without it in most cases.
The sleep study may find details about the treatment, such as centrals, or things like heart problems, restless leg syndrome, etc.
You could put the patient on a data capable CPAP and use it as a sort of micro home sleep test, but that requires more human intervention and isn't nearly as definitive.
They need to spread the wealth and generate revenue for sleep labs.

Thank you. I didn't want to hijack this thread by talking about my circumstances. So, I started a new one: [I couldn't post the link because the forum doesn't allow new users to. I'm sure you can find it if you want to.]


#57
(10-09-2014, 02:51 PM)wheaton4prez Wrote: Tiredness, feeling out of breath at night and in the morning, memory loss, etc. Are those the typical signs?

Memory loss and other forms of impaired cognition are, as well as tiredness.

Quote:From my perspective, if doctors can determine if someone has sleep apnea with such a high success rate that the sleep center has never seen a case of someone passing the test without apnea, having sleep study centers at all only confuses the issue.

Obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) is but one form of sleep disordered breathing (SDB), and there are other sleep disorders such as restless leg syndrome (RLS). All of these things are tested for in a sleep study. Also, the proper pressure and type of machine needed are determined during a sleep study.
Sleepster
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
#58
(10-10-2014, 06:25 PM)Ghost1958 Wrote: Firefighters have been known to be trapped and have extra tanks to switch to lowered to them and have slept with SCBA. Though not for 8 hours at a time of course.

CPAP is going to be on an average of nearly 3000 hours per years.

How many lifetime hours of sleep do think anyone gets while wearing SCBA? World record? Average SCBA user?

How often does someone sleep with SCBA on when they aren't in a situation where the alternative is death or severe health problems?

For that matter, how many hours a year do people get wearing SCBA period?

Do you know if anyone can just go buy SCBA gear and get tanks filled? Or do you have to be certified?

I'm not saying CPAP is particularly dangerous. It's just that SCBA isn't a good analogy.
Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
#59
(10-11-2014, 07:13 PM)archangle Wrote:
(10-10-2014, 06:25 PM)Ghost1958 Wrote: Firefighters have been known to be trapped and have extra tanks to switch to lowered to them and have slept with SCBA. Though not for 8 hours at a time of course.

CPAP is going to be on an average of nearly 3000 hours per years.

How many lifetime hours of sleep do think anyone gets while wearing SCBA? World record? Average SCBA user?

How often does someone sleep with SCBA on when they aren't in a situation where the alternative is death or severe health problems?

For that matter, how many hours a year do people get wearing SCBA period?

Do you know if anyone can just go buy SCBA gear and get tanks filled? Or do you have to be certified?

I'm not saying CPAP is particularly dangerous. It's just that SCBA isn't a good analogy.

LOl no I wouldnt want to sleep with a SCBA on if I had a choice LOL.

The hours one uses SCBA while not every night all the time can still run up to quite a few depending on a couple of things. One how much other training like entry, Haz Mat hours etc one takes plus how many incidents ones department has. And what they are.


Getting tanks filled is no biggie. Volunteer departments that can afford them have their own cascade machines which other than the rep showing someone how it works there isnt any certification needed for the guys doing the filling. Even Jr fireman not yet certified as fire fighters fill em.

Im not saying they two are the same. Im only saying one (SCBA) would be a lot more likely to hurt a person than a cpap machine.
Regulator goes on a SCBA you either get nothing or your get very high pressure air from a highly pressurized tank which probably would blow your lungs out if it happened all at once. And a mask that will hold that pressure. Yet no medical oversight or prescriptions or anything much more than strap this here seal that there turn this on and away you go.

VS a cpap machine that couldnt produce enough pressure if ran wild to bust a lung nor is there a cpap mask I know that would hold that kind of pressure even if it could. Yet one would think the way the Medical field behaves that sudden death lurks in every cpap machine unless it is closely monitored, for a high fee of course, by trained professionals every step of the way.

Just seems a bit overly guarded and geared more to being a cash cow for the medical profession and DMEs than it needs to be.

Being untreated in my honest opinion because of the hurdles placed by DMEs insurance and Docs is way more dangerous than someone using a auto machine to treat themselves. Thinking-about JMO worth what you paid for it Big Grin



#60
The sleep center that I went to has an option available for people who cannot sleep at the center, They send specialized equipment home with the patient and they review the information from the equipment when it is returned. Most people who get any level of sleep provide enough information to allow diagnosis. When I went I tossed and turned constantly and they managed to get enough information.


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