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Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
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vsheline Offline

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Posts: 1,908
Joined: Jul 2012

Machine: S9 VPAP Adapt (USA Model# 36007, not better 36037 or 36067)
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F10 or SimPlus w/ 2Liners. MirageQuatro & Gecko gel pad
Humidifier: H5i
CPAP Pressure: 15 EPAP, PS 5-10
CPAP Software: ResScan

Other Comments: Marfan Syndrome, chronic bradycardia, occasional Cheyne-Stokes Respiration

Sex: Male
Location: California, USA

Post: #51
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-12-2015 08:17 PM)GeoffD Wrote:  The HDM Z1 ultra-portable CPAP machine has no humidifier but they sell a disposable inline gizmo that absorbs the moisture from you exhaling into the mask. A Z1 Auto user and advocate on another CPAP forum uses them. They're $5.95 and he claims to get something like 10 days use out of them. You can find them on the manufacturer web site. HDM Z1Heat/Moisture Exchanger (HME).

I haven't bought one and played with it yet. I suspect you need to put it close as possible to the mask so it absorbs the most moisture. I'd have to hack up the hose to a spare ResMed AirFit P10 nasal pillow mask.

I think the HDM Heat Moisture Exchanger (HME) cannot work well (if at all) on standard CPAP machines, and certainly not with full face masks with anti-backflow valves which prevent exhalation airflow from exiting the mask into the hose.

To do the most good, the HME would need to be placed between us (our airway) and the mask vent holes, so that the moisture in the air we exhale could be captured by the HME before the moisture and air exhaled can exit the mask through the mask vent holes.

I think it would be pretty much impossible to place the HME between our airway and the vent holes. Everyone will place the HME between the hose and the mask, where usually it will do no good whatsoever, because usually the air we exhale immediately exits the vent holes, with no exhalation of moist air from our lungs going back into the hose.

Membership in the Advisory Member group should not be understood as in any way implying medical expertise or qualification for advising Sleep Apnea patients concerning their treatment. The Advisory Member group provides advice and suggestions to Apnea Board administrators and staff on matters concerning Apnea Board operation and administrative policies - not on matters concerning treatment for Sleep Apnea. I think it is now too late to change the name of the group but I think Voting Member group would perhaps have been a more descriptive name for the group.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2015 12:26 AM by vsheline.)
04-12-2015 09:59 PM
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archangle Offline
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Advisory Members

Posts: 3,159
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: ResMed S9 AutoSet
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Swift FX
Humidifier: ResMed S9 H5i
CPAP Pressure: 16-20
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead EncoreBasic

Other Comments: Happy PAPper

Sex: Undisclosed
Location: USA

Post: #52
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-12-2015 09:59 PM)vsheline Wrote:  I think the HDM Heat Moisture Exchanger (HME) cannot work well (if at all) on standard CPAP machines, and certainly not with full face masks with anti-backflow valves which prevent exhalation airflow from exiting the mask into the hose.

Full face masks do not have anti-backflow valves. FFM's have anti-asphyxia valves, but they only open up when the CPAP pressure goes away. When the CPAP pressure is on, the anti-asphyxia valve is essentially not there and your exhaled air splits between the exhale vent holes and going back up the hose.

Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
04-12-2015 11:37 PM
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vsheline Offline

Advisory Members

Posts: 1,908
Joined: Jul 2012

Machine: S9 VPAP Adapt (USA Model# 36007, not better 36037 or 36067)
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F10 or SimPlus w/ 2Liners. MirageQuatro & Gecko gel pad
Humidifier: H5i
CPAP Pressure: 15 EPAP, PS 5-10
CPAP Software: ResScan

Other Comments: Marfan Syndrome, chronic bradycardia, occasional Cheyne-Stokes Respiration

Sex: Male
Location: California, USA

Post: #53
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-12-2015 11:37 PM)archangle Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 09:59 PM)vsheline Wrote:  I think the HDM Heat Moisture Exchanger (HME) cannot work well (if at all) on standard CPAP machines, and certainly not with full face masks with anti-backflow valves which prevent exhalation airflow from exiting the mask into the hose.

Full face masks do not have anti-backflow valves. FFM's have anti-asphyxia valves, but they only open up when the CPAP pressure goes away. When the CPAP pressure is on, the anti-asphyxia valve is essentially not there and your exhaled air splits between the exhale vent holes and going back up the hose.

So, for low pressures, the direction of airflow normally reverses in the hose between inhalation and exhalation, even when we don't exhale strongly or cough?

At higher pressures, I think the rate of intended leakage through the vent holes will normally be greater than the Flow from our lungs when we are exhaling, so that airflow in the hose never reverses (and an HME filter would never provide any humidification benefit), but I suppose the pressure at which this happens would vary from one mask type to the next.

Membership in the Advisory Member group should not be understood as in any way implying medical expertise or qualification for advising Sleep Apnea patients concerning their treatment. The Advisory Member group provides advice and suggestions to Apnea Board administrators and staff on matters concerning Apnea Board operation and administrative policies - not on matters concerning treatment for Sleep Apnea. I think it is now too late to change the name of the group but I think Voting Member group would perhaps have been a more descriptive name for the group.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2015 02:03 AM by vsheline.)
04-13-2015 01:57 AM
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archangle Offline
Wiki Editor
Advisory Members

Posts: 3,159
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: ResMed S9 AutoSet
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Swift FX
Humidifier: ResMed S9 H5i
CPAP Pressure: 16-20
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead EncoreBasic

Other Comments: Happy PAPper

Sex: Undisclosed
Location: USA

Post: #54
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-13-2015 01:57 AM)vsheline Wrote:  So, for low pressures, the direction of airflow normally reverses in the hose between inhalation and exhalation, even when we don't exhale strongly or cough?

At higher pressures, I think the rate of intended leakage through the vent holes will normally be greater than the Flow from our lungs when we are exhaling, so that airflow in the hose never reverses (and an HME filter would never provide any humidification benefit), but I suppose the pressure at which this happens would vary from one mask type to the next.

Yes, air does go back up the hose in many circumstances. I used to see condensation when I exhaled in my ComfortGel masks on cold nights.

The higher your vent's leak rate and the lower your exhale flow rate, the less air goes back up the hose. For some people, probably little or none goes back up the hose, and an HME wouldn't work.

Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
04-13-2015 07:34 PM
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JVinNE Offline

Advisory Members

Posts: 262
Joined: Jan 2015

Machine: ResMed Aircurve 10 ASV Bilevel
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F&P Simplus aka Facedigger
Humidifier: HumidAirâ„¢ with climate line
CPAP Pressure: Min EPAP 5 Max IPAP 13 PS 1-2
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: New, ASV Barbie, now with morning fart action.

Sex: Female
Location: New England

Post: #55
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-12-2015 08:17 PM)GeoffD Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 09:20 AM)JVinNE Wrote:  Last night's data:

Average Pressure 7.78
Min Pressure 4.14
Max Pressure 13.66
90% Pressure 10.90

I use auto.

Those are very low pressure settings. You wouldn't need much of a battery to get a night or two with your humidifier filled with warm water but with the humidifier disabled. The $60-something 35 amp-hour AGM wheelchair/scooter battery would be plenty.

The HDM Z1 ultra-portable CPAP machine has no humidifier but they sell a disposable inline gizmo that absorbs the moisture from you exhaling into the mask. A Z1 Auto user and advocate on another CPAP forum uses them. They're $5.95 and he claims to get something like 10 days use out of them. You can find them on the manufacturer web site. HDM Z1Heat/Moisture Exchanger (HME).

I haven't bought one and played with it yet. I suspect you need to put it close as possible to the mask so it absorbs the most moisture. I'd have to hack up the hose to a spare ResMed AirFit P10 nasal pillow mask.

Can't use a portable CPAP, because I'm on an ASV.

(04-12-2015 10:46 AM)iSnore Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 09:02 AM)iSnore Wrote:  I've had good luck with the more affordable Chinese "Universal Battery" AGM brand. They're what Pride uses in their mobility scooters and wheelchairs, and are popular with a number of portable ham radio operators.

Using the example of a 100 AH rated model (# 12100). Using 80% of it could translate into 8 hours at 6 amps (some heat) plus 16 hours at 2 amps (no heat).

(04-12-2015 09:20 AM)JVinNE Wrote:  Last night's data:

Average Pressure 7.78
Min Pressure 4.14
Max Pressure 13.66
90% Pressure 10.90

I use auto.

That's most helpful. Interpolating a lot of the different usages from ResMed's Battery Guide, I do believe a [URL removed] 100 AH battery would let you go through the first night of an outage at an average of 8 cm, at least with a SlimLine hose and humidity on 3 or 4 and maybe even on auto with the ClimateLineAir tube, while leaving enough capacity for another couple of nights with no humidity if they didn't get power back the next day.

The regular [URL removed]Battery Tender Jr could take over 4 days to recharge the battery. I know that from experience, and the 750 ma rating confirms that. They make a [URL removed] 5 amp Battery Tender that could get it recharged in 16 hours or less, which would be healthier for the battery, but it's more expensive. You'll also need an [URL removed] adapter to connect the plug on the battery to the converter.

I wouldn't try to use anything other than the ResMed DC-DC converter on your ResMed machine.

Hope this helps.

Edit to add: I believe it's likely the ResMed machines and perhaps the converter have some parasitic draw when not in use. Until it is needed, I'd just have the Battery Tender charging the battery with the DC-DC Converter disconnected, and I'd use the 120VAC power supply on the ASV. When power went out, I'd replace the 120VAC unit with the DC-DC converter hooked up to the battery, but I would disconnect the converter from the battery during the day to keep it from drawing power when not needed.


-----
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To maintain our status as an educational organization, the only commercial links allowed in this forum are to CPAP-related manufacturer websites. This is stated in the Apnea Board Rules with details given in the Commercial Links Policy section.
-----

Agreed.
(This post was last modified: 04-14-2015 07:39 AM by JVinNE.)
04-14-2015 07:37 AM
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GeoffD Offline

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Posts: 194
Joined: Sep 2014

Machine: ResMed Airsense 10 AutoSet
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed AirFit P10
Humidifier: Integral + ClimateLine
CPAP Pressure: 14-17
CPAP Software: ResScan

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: New England

Post: #56
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-14-2015 07:37 AM)JVinNE Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 08:17 PM)GeoffD Wrote:  The HDM Z1 ultra-portable CPAP machine has no humidifier but they sell a disposable inline gizmo that absorbs the moisture from you exhaling into the mask. A Z1 Auto user and advocate on another CPAP forum uses them. They're $5.95 and he claims to get something like 10 days use out of them. You can find them on the manufacturer web site. HDM Z1Heat/Moisture Exchanger (HME).

Can't use a portable CPAP, because I'm on an ASV.

My point is that there might be an option to use your machine with the humidifier tank filled with water, the heater in the humidifier that eats your battery disabled, and a $5.95 HDM Z1 Heat/Moisture Exchanger spliced into your hose near the mask to give you enough humidity to get by. With the heater in the humidifier off and the ClimateLine hose off, you're likely pulling less than an amp out of a 12v battery. You could easily get 3 or 4 days out of a 35 amp-hour AGM wheelchair/scooter battery.

I'm planning to give it a try. A Z1 user reports that it works for him. Worst case, I'm out $5.95 for the HME and I buy another $63.00 AGM battery & run them in parallel.

I'm also looking at solar panels for the boat. PowerFilm makes rollable ones in various sizes. If I can work out operating my CPAP machine without the humidifier or heated hose, a 21 watt solar panel should be able to fully recharge my battery every day.
04-14-2015 09:17 PM
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