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Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
#51
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-12-2015, 08:17 PM)GeoffD Wrote: The HDM Z1 ultra-portable CPAP machine has no humidifier but they sell a disposable inline gizmo that absorbs the moisture from you exhaling into the mask. A Z1 Auto user and advocate on another CPAP forum uses them. They're $5.95 and he claims to get something like 10 days use out of them. You can find them on the manufacturer web site. HDM Z1Heat/Moisture Exchanger (HME).

I haven't bought one and played with it yet. I suspect you need to put it close as possible to the mask so it absorbs the most moisture. I'd have to hack up the hose to a spare ResMed AirFit P10 nasal pillow mask.

I think the HDM Heat Moisture Exchanger (HME) cannot work well (if at all) on standard CPAP machines, and certainly not with full face masks with anti-backflow valves which prevent exhalation airflow from exiting the mask into the hose.

To do the most good, the HME would need to be placed between us (our airway) and the mask vent holes, so that the moisture in the air we exhale could be captured by the HME before the moisture and air exhaled can exit the mask through the mask vent holes.

I think it would be pretty much impossible to place the HME between our airway and the vent holes. Everyone will place the HME between the hose and the mask, where usually it will do no good whatsoever, because usually the air we exhale immediately exits the vent holes, with no exhalation of moist air from our lungs going back into the hose.




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#52
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-12-2015, 09:59 PM)vsheline Wrote: I think the HDM Heat Moisture Exchanger (HME) cannot work well (if at all) on standard CPAP machines, and certainly not with full face masks with anti-backflow valves which prevent exhalation airflow from exiting the mask into the hose.

Full face masks do not have anti-backflow valves. FFM's have anti-asphyxia valves, but they only open up when the CPAP pressure goes away. When the CPAP pressure is on, the anti-asphyxia valve is essentially not there and your exhaled air splits between the exhale vent holes and going back up the hose.


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#53
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-12-2015, 11:37 PM)archangle Wrote:
(04-12-2015, 09:59 PM)vsheline Wrote: I think the HDM Heat Moisture Exchanger (HME) cannot work well (if at all) on standard CPAP machines, and certainly not with full face masks with anti-backflow valves which prevent exhalation airflow from exiting the mask into the hose.

Full face masks do not have anti-backflow valves. FFM's have anti-asphyxia valves, but they only open up when the CPAP pressure goes away. When the CPAP pressure is on, the anti-asphyxia valve is essentially not there and your exhaled air splits between the exhale vent holes and going back up the hose.

So, for low pressures, the direction of airflow normally reverses in the hose between inhalation and exhalation, even when we don't exhale strongly or cough?

At higher pressures, I think the rate of intended leakage through the vent holes will normally be greater than the Flow from our lungs when we are exhaling, so that airflow in the hose never reverses (and an HME filter would never provide any humidification benefit), but I suppose the pressure at which this happens would vary from one mask type to the next.






The Advisory Member group provides advice and suggestions to Apnea Board administrators and staff on matters concerning Apnea Board operation and administrative policies.  Membership in the Advisory Member group should not be understood as in any way implying medical expertise or qualification for advising Sleep Apnea patients concerning their treatment.
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#54
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-13-2015, 01:57 AM)vsheline Wrote: So, for low pressures, the direction of airflow normally reverses in the hose between inhalation and exhalation, even when we don't exhale strongly or cough?

At higher pressures, I think the rate of intended leakage through the vent holes will normally be greater than the Flow from our lungs when we are exhaling, so that airflow in the hose never reverses (and an HME filter would never provide any humidification benefit), but I suppose the pressure at which this happens would vary from one mask type to the next.

Yes, air does go back up the hose in many circumstances. I used to see condensation when I exhaled in my ComfortGel masks on cold nights.

The higher your vent's leak rate and the lower your exhale flow rate, the less air goes back up the hose. For some people, probably little or none goes back up the hose, and an HME wouldn't work.
Get the free OSCAR CPAP software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
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#55
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-12-2015, 08:17 PM)GeoffD Wrote:
(04-12-2015, 09:20 AM)JVinNE Wrote: Last night's data:

Average Pressure 7.78
Min Pressure 4.14
Max Pressure 13.66
90% Pressure 10.90

I use auto.

Those are very low pressure settings. You wouldn't need much of a battery to get a night or two with your humidifier filled with warm water but with the humidifier disabled. The $60-something 35 amp-hour AGM wheelchair/scooter battery would be plenty.

The HDM Z1 ultra-portable CPAP machine has no humidifier but they sell a disposable inline gizmo that absorbs the moisture from you exhaling into the mask. A Z1 Auto user and advocate on another CPAP forum uses them. They're $5.95 and he claims to get something like 10 days use out of them. You can find them on the manufacturer web site. HDM Z1Heat/Moisture Exchanger (HME).

I haven't bought one and played with it yet. I suspect you need to put it close as possible to the mask so it absorbs the most moisture. I'd have to hack up the hose to a spare ResMed AirFit P10 nasal pillow mask.

Can't use a portable CPAP, because I'm on an ASV.

(04-12-2015, 10:46 AM)iSnore Wrote:
(04-12-2015, 09:02 AM)iSnore Wrote: I've had good luck with the more affordable Chinese "Universal Battery" AGM brand. They're what Pride uses in their mobility scooters and wheelchairs, and are popular with a number of portable ham radio operators.

Using the example of a 100 AH rated model (# 12100). Using 80% of it could translate into 8 hours at 6 amps (some heat) plus 16 hours at 2 amps (no heat).

(04-12-2015, 09:20 AM)JVinNE Wrote: Last night's data:

Average Pressure 7.78
Min Pressure 4.14
Max Pressure 13.66
90% Pressure 10.90

I use auto.

That's most helpful. Interpolating a lot of the different usages from ResMed's Battery Guide, I do believe a [URL removed] 100 AH battery would let you go through the first night of an outage at an average of 8 cm, at least with a SlimLine hose and humidity on 3 or 4 and maybe even on auto with the ClimateLineAir tube, while leaving enough capacity for another couple of nights with no humidity if they didn't get power back the next day.

The regular [URL removed]Battery Tender Jr could take over 4 days to recharge the battery. I know that from experience, and the 750 ma rating confirms that. They make a [URL removed] 5 amp Battery Tender that could get it recharged in 16 hours or less, which would be healthier for the battery, but it's more expensive. You'll also need an [URL removed] adapter to connect the plug on the battery to the converter.

I wouldn't try to use anything other than the ResMed DC-DC converter on your ResMed machine.

Hope this helps.

Edit to add: I believe it's likely the ResMed machines and perhaps the converter have some parasitic draw when not in use. Until it is needed, I'd just have the Battery Tender charging the battery with the DC-DC Converter disconnected, and I'd use the 120VAC power supply on the ASV. When power went out, I'd replace the 120VAC unit with the DC-DC converter hooked up to the battery, but I would disconnect the converter from the battery during the day to keep it from drawing power when not needed.


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To maintain our status as an educational organization, the only commercial links allowed in this forum are to CPAP-related manufacturer websites. This is stated in the Apnea Board Rules with details given in the Commercial Links Policy section.
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Agreed.
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#56
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
(04-14-2015, 07:37 AM)JVinNE Wrote:
(04-12-2015, 08:17 PM)GeoffD Wrote: The HDM Z1 ultra-portable CPAP machine has no humidifier but they sell a disposable inline gizmo that absorbs the moisture from you exhaling into the mask. A Z1 Auto user and advocate on another CPAP forum uses them. They're $5.95 and he claims to get something like 10 days use out of them. You can find them on the manufacturer web site. HDM Z1Heat/Moisture Exchanger (HME).

Can't use a portable CPAP, because I'm on an ASV.

My point is that there might be an option to use your machine with the humidifier tank filled with water, the heater in the humidifier that eats your battery disabled, and a $5.95 HDM Z1 Heat/Moisture Exchanger spliced into your hose near the mask to give you enough humidity to get by. With the heater in the humidifier off and the ClimateLine hose off, you're likely pulling less than an amp out of a 12v battery. You could easily get 3 or 4 days out of a 35 amp-hour AGM wheelchair/scooter battery.

I'm planning to give it a try. A Z1 user reports that it works for him. Worst case, I'm out $5.95 for the HME and I buy another $63.00 AGM battery & run them in parallel.

I'm also looking at solar panels for the boat. PowerFilm makes rollable ones in various sizes. If I can work out operating my CPAP machine without the humidifier or heated hose, a 21 watt solar panel should be able to fully recharge my battery every day.
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#57
RE: Dep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
[quote pid='108141' dateline='1428674836']
(04-09-2015, 05:59 PM)GeoffD Wrote: You need three things for power failure backup power with a ResMed 10 machine.
1- The DC-DC power converter
2- A battery charger
3- A battery

You've already been given the part number for the ResMed DC-DC power converter for the machine.  Google search on "resmed 37297".  You will find several venders who will sell you one for sub-$90.00.  Pick the one that has free shipping.  If you click on all the web sites, you may find one with a free shipping promo or a discount for new customers.  12 volt systems like Phillips Respironics can use a much cheaper power cord instead of the DC-DC converter.

The battery charger is cheap.  For a power failure machine, you don't need one that can charge the battery quickly.  You want one that acts as a battery tender so the battery is kept topped off.  I bought a "Battery Tender Jr" on Amazon Prime for $27.00.  

I went with a 35 amp-hour AGM wheelchair/scooter battery.  I found one on Amazon for $63.00.   ML35-12 Mighty Max Battery.   It's small but it weighs 25 pounds.   

  So you can get a power failure setup for a bit less than $190.00.  Somebody with a 12 volt machine could do it $50+ cheaper.  You could lug it with you in a car or on a boat but it's not really "portable".  

Another thing to be aware of....  The battery backup document ResMed wrote doesn't come out and say it but you can't run an AirSense 10 off of an inverter.  That means that you can't use most generators.

Thank you, Geoff
[/quote]
Can anyone give me a step by step guide or a link to a you tube video that shows me how to connect an Air Sense 10 to a 35 amp wheelchair battery? And can you also tell me how to charge the wheelchair battery? I assume you can't just plug it into the wall, or can you? I've got a boyfriend who can help me if I can get some good instructions of how to do this. Thank you!
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#58
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
You will need:
  1. Resmed 12/24 DC-DC power supply for the A10,
  2. Battery tender, not a battery charger. (There is a difference)
  3. Battery
The power supply comes with the connections for the battery, as does the battery tender.  The battery tender will maintain the battery and not over charge it or shorten its life.

To connect, keep all positive terminals together as well as all negative connections.

Running with the humidifier will shorten your run time by about half (rule-of-thumb - not exact). Using a heated hose will drop it even more.

I hope this answers your question.
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#59
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
Thank you, it sounds pretty simple. After I get the battery I may have other questions. 


Someone creative should make a youtube video on this! I'd love to see it actually put together.
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#60
RE: Deep cycle marine battery backup questions. Please help.
Some really great information here...especially from GeoffD. 

If I may, I might add that I've been using my cpap while dispersed camping (no plugins and no generator) for 5 years. The system is 2 12V deep cycle batteries with 2-100 solar panels connected to the batteries via a 30amp charge controller. My cpap generally runs 16-18 cm so it's a pretty high draw...there's no way I could use the humidifier with it. When I settle down for the evening after a good long day of sun my voltage is at 12.7 to 12.8 volts. Through the night running cpap, heater (just to take the edge off) and a few lights (LED), voltage in the morning is 12.4 -12.5 volts...recharge that through the day. My longest stretch using this system was 13 days straight and no issues with the cpap...even when we had some cloudy/raining days.

With regards to indoor use...No on the lead acid deep cycle...it vents and you don't want to be breathing that. What others have said .... GEL .... or even Lithium is a good option.
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