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[Diagnosis] Are there any APAP Machines that record SLEEP HOURS
#11
We had a discussion on this forum some months ago on the reliability of xpap data as compared to PSG and the conclusion was that xpap data was in fact fairly reliable.

http://www.apneaboard.com/forums/Thread-...#pid128894

See post 28 and after
Coffee

Happy Pappin'
Never Give In, Never Give Up


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. 
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#12
(02-11-2016, 10:41 PM)eseedhouse Wrote:
(02-11-2016, 06:05 PM)jn20info Wrote: I have googled all main branded APAP's, but are yet to find an APAP machine, that records your Sleep therapy statistics, based on actual SLEEP hours.

You are searching for the non existent. No machine can know when you are actually sleeping based only on your airflow, which is all they can measure. You can only tell that by examining your brainwaves.

You aren't going to find any *PAP machine with electrodes that stick on your skull, so you are never going to find one that can be sure exactly when you are asleep or not. And in any event I don't think you don't really need to know this exactly. How do you feel in the morning when you wake up? This tells you most of what you need to know.

Yes , I think that is why they had video camera's at my sleep studies so they could see if I was sleeping.
And how you feel in the morning is the best way to know how your night was.
I don't even think of using my cpap while I'm up reading or watching TV, I only mask up when I'm going to go to sleep so my hours run is pretty close to my sleep time.
Sleep-well
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#13
(02-11-2016, 10:41 PM)eseedhouse Wrote:
(02-11-2016, 06:05 PM)jn20info Wrote: I have googled all main branded APAP's, but are yet to find an APAP machine, that records your Sleep therapy statistics, based on actual SLEEP hours.

You are searching for the non existent. No machine can know when you are actually sleeping based only on your airflow, which is all they can measure. You can only tell that by examining your brainwaves.

You aren't going to find any *PAP machine with electrodes that stick on your skull, so you are never going to find one that can be sure exactly when you are asleep or not. And in any event I don't think you don't really need to know this exactly. How do you feel in the morning when you wake up? This tells you most of what you need to know.

Hi eseedhouse,
It indeed does make sense, that you would need brainwave readings, to fully sure, that you are in fact asleep. However, every now & then scientists, find other ways, to achieve the same result.
So the overwhelmeing answer would be "no", for now.

How do I feel? CRAP! (Every morning - since, I lost weight, and dropped from mean pressure "8" to "4"). It would seem Central Sleep Apnea, has now multiplied, because of sudden (8 weeks) drop in mean pressure. This is known as compSA (complex sleep apnea Syndrome). Reduce the OSA, and watch the CSA flourish! (For some patients only).

Great!
Here goes $4,000.00 for an ASV machine.
I have sleep study scheduled for Tuesday. I will also have to be checked for Heart failure - Left ventricle chronic heart failure, reduced ejection fraction (LVEF ≤45%), as ASV's have been linked, to a higher morbidity rate, for the aforementioned heart disease.
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#14
Quote:How do I feel? CRAP! (Every morning - since, I lost weight, and dropped from mean pressure "8" to "4"). It would seem Central Sleep Apnea, has now multiplied, because of sudden (8 weeks) drop in mean pressure. This is known as compSA (complex sleep apnea Syndrome). Reduce the OSA, and watch the CSA flourish! (For some patients only).

That seems arse-about to me. Pressure-induced central apnea is caused by too high a pressure, not too low. The normal scenario is that increasing pressure to reduce obstructive apnea will cause centrals to increase. A pressure of 4 is as low as the machine will go, and many people feel starved for air at that setting. I'd be very surprised if a pressure of 4 is causing your centrals.

By the way, which machine are you actually using? Your profile states 3B Resmart Auto as the machine and 3B Resmart Auto and Resmed Airwave Autoset 10 as the humidifier - is that right? The 3B Resmart only provides very limited data and doesn't (as far as I am aware) report on central apneas. The Resmed (which I assume is the Airsense 10 Autoset?) does report centrals, and you can use SleepyHead or ResScan software to get a highly detailed look at your data.
DeepBreathing
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


Bed

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#15
On my auto snd my wifes I can tell the minute U or she goes to sleep as well as two other foljs ive helped out .
Awake breathing flow wave is eratic and deeper beathing.
Once asleep the flow wave gets very consistant and diffrently shaped.
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#16
I can tell by my pressure. It is usually fairly flat or slightly rising and then boom, it rises like a balloon as it tries to find its starting spot.

And yes, the flow rate is full of spikes then smooths out at about the same time the pressure is doing its thing.
PaulaO2
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


Breathe deeply and count to zen.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.




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#17
(02-12-2016, 09:01 PM)Mr. Van Winkle Wrote:
(02-11-2016, 10:41 PM)eseedhouse Wrote:
(02-11-2016, 06:05 PM)jn20info Wrote: I have googled all main branded APAP's, but are yet to find an APAP machine, that records your Sleep therapy statistics, based on actual SLEEP hours.

You are searching for the non existent. No machine can know when you are actually sleeping based only on your airflow, which is all they can measure. You can only tell that by examining your brainwaves.

You aren't going to find any *PAP machine with electrodes that stick on your skull, so you are never going to find one that can be sure exactly when you are asleep or not. And in any event I don't think you don't really need to know this exactly. How do you feel in the morning when you wake up? This tells you most of what you need to know.

Yes , I think that is why they had video camera's at my sleep studies so they could see if I was sleeping.
And how you feel in the morning is the best way to know how your night was.
I don't even think of using my cpap while I'm up reading or watching TV, I only mask up when I'm going to go to sleep so my hours run is pretty close to my sleep time.
Sleep-well

The video cameras are looking for movements, not whether you are awake or not. They use the brain wave pattern to determine when to wake you up.
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#18
(02-11-2016, 10:41 PM)eseedhouse Wrote:
(02-11-2016, 06:05 PM)jn20info Wrote: I have googled all main branded APAP's, but are yet to find an APAP machine, that records your Sleep therapy statistics, based on actual SLEEP hours.

You are searching for the non existent. No machine can know when you are actually sleeping based only on your airflow, which is all they can measure. You can only tell that by examining your brainwaves.

You aren't going to find any *PAP machine with electrodes that stick on your skull, so you are never going to find one that can be sure exactly when you are asleep or not. And in any event I don't think you don't really need to know this exactly. How do you feel in the morning when you wake up? This tells you most of what you need to know.

Hi Seedhouse,
I feel crap, that's why I was asking. (Regardless of my recorded compliance hours value). Yes I know, that the most accurate way of analyzing sleep hours, is through brain wave sensors (I have attended many sleep tests). However scientists, are always discovering new ways (more, than 1 way), to detect the same information. Example-suggestion: When previously they thought, "actual sleep hours", could NOT be detected by breath pattern, on further, closer scrutinizing/investigating, they might find a NEW remnant/precursor/pattern, (in breathing pattern) that DOES point to "actual sleep hours". This is what I was wondering about, and hoped, might be now incorporated in apnea machines.
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#19
So far, what the scientists discovered is that based on the breath pattern, they they can approximate the actual sleep hours and that the approximation is just... an approximation. To give the answer to the question when the brain is asleep is... to measure brain activity. Base on that, the scientists can more or less agree on the actual sleep time or at least agree that the approximation given by the monitoring brain activity. OK, obviously, right now, my brain is half asleep... Lets try another angle; breathing pattern is just a side effect of several major factors. I"m not having an apnea waiting for a scientists to use it to define a single relationship like "specific pattern" = asleep. Heck, device manufacturers don't even count the same way something like AHI !
Everything I post on this board is nothing more than an opinion expressed by an apneak. Normally, it's based on facts and experience but sometimes, I may get things wrong or not have all the facts.
I reserve the right to change my mind. Why? Because tomorrow I may know better.
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#20
(02-12-2016, 10:50 PM)DeepBreathing Wrote:
Quote:How do I feel? CRAP! (Every morning - since, I lost weight, and dropped from mean pressure "8" to "4"). It would seem Central Sleep Apnea, has now multiplied, because of sudden (8 weeks) drop in mean pressure. This is known as compSA (complex sleep apnea Syndrome). Reduce the OSA, and watch the CSA flourish! (For some patients only).

That seems arse-about to me. Pressure-induced central apnea is caused by too high a pressure, not too low. The normal scenario is that increasing pressure to reduce obstructive apnea will cause centrals to increase. A pressure of 4 is as low as the machine will go, and many people feel starved for air at that setting. I'd be very surprised if a pressure of 4 is causing your centrals.

By the way, which machine are you actually using? Your profile states 3B Resmart Auto as the machine and 3B Resmart Auto and Resmed Airwave Autoset 10 as the humidifier - is that right? The 3B Resmart only provides very limited data and doesn't (as far as I am aware) report on central apneas. The Resmed (which I assume is the Airsense 10 Autoset?) does report centrals, and you can use SleepyHead or ResScan software to get a highly detailed look at your data.

Hi DeepBreating,
Just clarifying - NOT arguing:
I was using 3B Resmart Luna II, when I discovered 80-100% CSA, with the accompaning 3B sleep therapy software view.
3B RESmart Luna II, definitely records CSA. It uses the same technology as Resmed, and places an oscillating air pressure of "1" cm H2O, on top of OSA event. This oscillating air pressure of "1" cm H2O determines whether your apnea event is, happening during airway closure (OSA), or during an open airway (CSA). The Resmed technology term used, for determining CSA is known as; "The forced oscillation technique (FOT)".
As for my treatment pressure of "4": I have Luna II on auto mode, : Initial press of 4, treatment press at 4, zero ramp, an max APAP at a value of "6". My Luna II machine, is quite happy to leave me at "4", and my sleep therapy software PC view, shows that, on very rare occasions, my pressure is adjusted automatically to "4.5", when an OSA is detected. However, for the majority of the time (90 -100%), a treatment value of "4", shows zero apnea events (except for CSA). I have scrutinized the CSA events (viewing my breath pattern on PC), and they are definitely just that. They are flat-liners up to 28 secs, with the FOT of "1" cm H2O variance, being imposed ontop of flat-liner CSA waveform (FOT looks like minature fast oscillating sawtooth pattern. If I remember rightly the FOT oscillation is set at 3Hz (3 times per second), which cannot be confused for anything else, but FOT).

3B RESmart LUNA II, treats the CSA event, the same way as Resmed autoset 10, it doesn't! It does not increase air pressure for CSA, as this response would be ineffective for CSA (Unlike, BiLevel or ASV machines, that will treat CSA effectively).
There is more than (1) way for CSA to suddenly involve. CSA, they are finding, is more complex, than they initially thought. It has many different classifications, regarding it's sudden emergence & growth into your sleep.
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