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Distilled water vs demineralised water
#11
Thanks mate. Woolies around me just sells demineralised water Sad
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#12
Here in Perth both Coles and Woollies sell David Gray's distilled water. The fine print says "this water is purified by deonisation - the name distilled water is not intended to describe the process of purification". So even "distilled water" is not necessarily distilled.

As said above, if the water is safe enough to drink, it's safe enough to use in your humidifier. I choose to use distilled water at home because we have a reasonably high calcium content and can't be bothered with the vinegar treatment. When travelling I use tap water in places like Singapore and bottled drinking water in Bali or Myanmar.
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#13
It is very important to use distilled water. As a chemical engineer and semiconductor engineer I use purified waters for various applications.

1. Distilled water is water that is just and only water. Water is evaporated and condensed leaving junk behind.

2. Demineralized water can have two meanings.
A. What is meant by demineralization is that it has been through ion exchange to remove Calcium and Magnesium and Iron and the ions replaced with Sodium. This is water softening. As your water evaporates you get residue. However, non-ionic components such as organics might be present as well as dissolved silica. I don't think demineralization has a generally accepted technical definition.

B. Deionized means all the ions are removed so your water has a conductivity of 18 megaohms-cm. However, organics and any other stuff that is not conductive can be there as well. In industry it is always somewhat humorous when the supposedly clean 18 megahom-cm water turns out to be full of bacterial cell walls and other components of dead bacterial.

3. Tap water. I have used it in a pinch. Definitely recommend not using it. You can have dissolved gasses, minerals, dissolved carbon, living organisms, and the pH may not be 7. It is definitely loaded with silica. Stuff can deposit out as it is heated such as Calcium carbonate, gases such as chlorine or sulfides can evolve from solution as it is heated, the pH will become stronger as the solutes are concentrated. Living organisms can be entrained into the flowing air. Consider boiling the water and cooling it before using it. This will removed dissolved gases, kill living organisms, and perhaps precipitate some items.

4. Reverse osmosis. I think this would be acceptable since it would remove solids of any type and any and all dissolved materials both ionic and non-ionic. This would be some unit set up to process water in a remote location.
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#14
If you do use anything other than distilled or deionized water, be sure to empty your water tank and clean it every morning so the crud doesn't concentrate and get smelly, grow germs, or build up minerals.  As the water evaporates, minerals and other crud are left behind and accumulate in the tank.  Also, whatever dust gets past the air filter builds up in the water.

Emptying the tank every morning is probably a good idea even with distilled water, but many of us who use distilled water don't bother to do that very often.   Even distilled water will eventually crud up in your tank.  

Tap water may give you a chlorine smell. 

If the tap water does screw anything up, it will only be the water tub, which is easily replaceable for $40 or so online. 

In terms of safety to you, if the water is safe enough to drink or shower with, it's safe enough to inhale the vapor from.   Just don't let it sit around long enough to start growing germs.  

I also say to be sure to use water intended for human consumption.  Distilled or deionized water intended for chemical or industrial use might have contaminants.  Distilling removes minerals, but some contaminants will make it through the distilling process.  Deionized water has the ions removed, but many dangerous chemicals are not ionic and may remain behind.   Even if the water treatment process produces "pure" distilled or deionized water, if it's not handled according to human consumption standards, it could get contaminated with something.
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#15
Unless you're immune compromised then if the water is safe enough to drink, it's safe enough to use it a humidifier. The air we breathe every day is full of all sorts of crap but we still breathe it.

I'd be very interested to see any peer reviewed papers stating that anybody caught something nasty from using a humidifier (with sensible precautions such as periodic washing of the tub).
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#16
We probably inhale more tap water during shower than we do during a night of humidifier+CPAP use.

AND I clean my humidifier tub much more often than I do the shower head.

I use bottled water when traveling only if the hotel water smells too chlorine-ish for me. Since I have a spring at home, I detect the smell too easily.
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.




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#17
(04-06-2017, 05:57 PM)sleepy1235 Wrote: It is very important to use distilled water. As a chemical engineer and semiconductor engineer I use purified waters for various applications.

1. Distilled water is water that is just and only water. Water is evaporated and condensed leaving junk behind.
As a chemical engineer, I'm sure you are aware there are many grades of distilled water. That used for production of sterile pharmeceuticuls is produced in muliti effect stills starting with water that has first been pretreated by mixed ion bed deionization and or reverse osmosis, dechlorinizatation, and filtration to remove solids.  A single stage distillation of drinking water will result in significant purification but will not leave all "junk" behind. I would hate to have forum readers assume that the distilled water they buy at the grocery store comes close to the quality of that used in the pharmaceutical and micro-electronics industries.

2. Demineralized water can have two meanings.
   A. What is meant by demineralization is that it has been through ion exchange to remove Calcium and Magnesium and Iron and the ions replaced with Sodium. This is water softening. As your water evaporates you get residue. However, non-ionic components such as organics might be present as well as dissolved silica. I don't think demineralization has a generally accepted technical definition.

B. Deionized means all the ions are removed so your water has a conductivity of 18 megaohms-cm. However, organics and any other stuff that is not conductive can be there as well. In industry it is always somewhat humorous when the supposedly clean 18 megahom-cm water turns out to be full of bacterial cell walls and other components of dead bacterial.

All ions? It depends on how rigorous a process is used. All deionized water will not meet the 18 megaohm resistivity standard you cite. I don't know what industry you work in but I would think they would employ a process that minimized total organic carbon and/or dissolved and suspended solids as well. Biofilm made up of living and dead bacteria is a widespread challenge in industrial purified water systems. I'm not sure what you mean by "full of" but a certain number of live bacteria are a fact of life in purified water systems so, of course, there will also be dead bacteria. Even sterile water for injection is not free of dead bacteria.

3. Tap water. I have used it in a pinch. Definitely recommend not using it. You can have dissolved gasses, minerals, dissolved carbon, living organisms, and the pH may not be 7. It is definitely loaded with silica. Stuff can deposit out as it is heated such as Calcium carbonate, gases such as chlorine or sulfides can evolve from solution as it is heated, the pH will become stronger as the solutes are concentrated. Living organisms can be entrained into the flowing air.  Consider boiling the water and cooling it before using it. This will removed dissolved gases, kill living organisms, and perhaps precipitate some items.

All water that has been exposed to the atmosphere contains dissolved gasses. What gasses are you concerned about? Likewise all water unless it has been sterilized and not exposed to any non-sterile surface or environment contains living bacteria including any purchased distilled water that (in the US) is not labeled USP water for injection or irrigation which is much more expensive than distilled water from the supermarket. It is true that some aerosolization will occur in the CPAP humidifier with entrained bacteria. But this will happen with the use of inexpensive distilled water as well as tap water. 

We all inhale environmental bacteria continuously. Anyone who is worried about bacteria containing aerosols from tap water should not shower, was dishes, or water their lawns. All of these activities create aerosols which we inhale. It's simply wrong to imply that tap water that meets drinking water standards is a microbial hazard.

4. Reverse osmosis. I think this would be acceptable since it would remove solids of any type and any and all dissolved materials both ionic and non-ionic.  This would be some unit set up to process water in a remote location.

Remote Location? Most pharmaceutical production plants in the US and probably the developed world use RO in their water purification process. But even RO doesn't remove everything and there are degrees of RO treatment.

I realize this response may seem harsh but it is based on almost 30 years experience as a quality control microbiologist and consultant in the sterile pharmaceutical industry. Among my responsibilities were the validation, testing, and troubleshooting of purified water systems. There is no reason to fear using tap water in your humidifier as long as you don't mind having to deal with mineral deposits.

Also, although the garden variety distilled water we purchase at the grocery store is preferable to tap water with respect to mineral content it would be a mistake to think of it as highly purified or sterile. For our purposes it doesn't need to be.

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#18
BHappy, I use the Refresh brand pure water from Woolworths, in the drinking water aisle, like James, it's a 5 litre bottle for around $4.75, I was using demineralised water from Coles 2litres for $1.65.
I don't find much difference between either.
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#19
(04-06-2017, 08:07 PM)PaulaO2 Wrote: We probably inhale more tap water during shower than we do during a night of humidifier+CPAP use.

AND I clean my humidifier tub much more often than I do the shower head.

Love that response like I should have kept mine that light.

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#20
(04-06-2017, 08:41 PM)Tez62 Wrote: BHappy, I use the Refresh brand pure water from Woolworths, in the drinking water aisle, like James, it's a 5 litre bottle for around $4.75, I was using demineralised water from Coles 2litres for $1.65.
I don't find much difference between either.

Depending on where you live in Melbourne, there is this place
BE Products
14 Clarice Rd Box Hill 3128
ph 03 98902008

I go to this place and they charge me $20 to fill a 20L carboy with distilled water.
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