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Do any machines try to fix leaks?
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FrankNichols Offline

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Post: #1
Do any machines try to fix leaks?
I have been lurking for a coulee weeks now and reading everything I can while waiting for my CPAP to get here. And I see a lot of posts about leaks, especially leaks at high pressure.

When I had my titration study done I had a "blow out" type leak at pressures above 18. I assume this is what is being referred to. I woke up to a lot of noise and spent a while fiddling with the mask until I managed to get it to shut up so I could go back to sleep.

So, I was thinking, does any one know if any machines try to stop leaks? It seems that it should be very simple for the machine to detect that there is a major leak and it seem that it could try lowering the pressure to see if the leak would stop the raising the pressure again. I expect it could determine if there is a maximum operating pressure that it can achieve without leaking.

Of course it might be better to have the leak wake you so you can "fix" it, but I was just wondering.

I am not a Medical professional and I don't play one on the internet.
Started CPAP Therapy April 5, 2016
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03-28-2016 08:00 AM
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robysue Online
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Post: #2
RE: Do any machines try to fix leaks?
(03-28-2016 08:00 AM)FrankNichols Wrote:  So, I was thinking, does any one know if any machines try to stop leaks? It seems that it should be very simple for the machine to detect that there is a major leak and it seem that it could try lowering the pressure to see if the leak would stop the raising the pressure again. I expect it could determine if there is a maximum operating pressure that it can achieve without leaking.
The PR System 1 APAPs do indeed lower the pressure in the presence of an official Large Leak in an effort to see if the mask will reseal. Once the leak rate is back down to a more acceptable range, the Auto algorithm takes back over and will increase the pressure as needed. I assume that the new PR DreamStation APAPs behave the same way.

Quote:Of course it might be better to have the leak wake you so you can "fix" it, but I was just wondering.
Not really. Anything that wakes you up has the potential to ruin your night's sleep if you then find it very difficult to get back to sleep.

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03-28-2016 08:26 AM
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FrankNichols Offline

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Machine: AirSense 10 Autoset
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Resmed F10 and/or P10
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CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead Other Software

Other Comments: I've figured out how to get my AHI down to 5, I quit sleeping!

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Post: #3
RE: Do any machines try to fix leaks?
(03-28-2016 08:26 AM)robysue Wrote:  
(03-28-2016 08:00 AM)FrankNichols Wrote:  So, I was thinking, does any one know if any machines try to stop leaks? It seems that it should be very simple for the machine to detect that there is a major leak and it seem that it could try lowering the pressure to see if the leak would stop the raising the pressure again. I expect it could determine if there is a maximum operating pressure that it can achieve without leaking.
The PR System 1 APAPs do indeed lower the pressure in the presence of an official Large Leak in an effort to see if the mask will reseal. Once the leak rate is back down to a more acceptable range, the Auto algorithm takes back over and will increase the pressure as needed. I assume that the new PR DreamStation APAPs behave the same way.

Quote:Of course it might be better to have the leak wake you so you can "fix" it, but I was just wondering.
Not really. Anything that wakes you up has the potential to ruin your night's sleep if you then find it very difficult to get back to sleep.

Thank you, it seems like such a good feature, I wonder why ResMed doesn't include it?

I am not a Medical professional and I don't play one on the internet.
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03-28-2016 08:50 AM
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DeepBreathing Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Do any machines try to fix leaks?
Quote:Thank you, it seems like such a good feature, I wonder why ResMed doesn't include it?

Actually they do. From the AirCurve 10 clinician manual:

Leak management with VSync
Using ResMed's VSync algorithm, the AirCurve 10 device monitors and compensates for leak by continuously and automatically adjusting the baseline flow. This enables reliable delivery of therapy pressure while maintaining patient-device synchrony.


The brochure for the S9 CPAP / APAP series includes: CORE HARDWARE FEATURES: Automatic leakage compensation.

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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
03-28-2016 09:19 AM
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FrankNichols Offline

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Machine: AirSense 10 Autoset
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Mask Make & Model: Resmed F10 and/or P10
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CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead Other Software

Other Comments: I've figured out how to get my AHI down to 5, I quit sleeping!

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Post: #5
RE: Do any machines try to fix leaks?
(03-28-2016 09:19 AM)DeepBreathing Wrote:  
Quote:Thank you, it seems like such a good feature, I wonder why ResMed doesn't include it?

Actually they do. From the AirCurve 10 clinician manual:

Leak management with VSync
Using ResMed's VSync algorithm, the AirCurve 10 device monitors and compensates for leak by continuously and automatically adjusting the baseline flow. This enables reliable delivery of therapy pressure while maintaining patient-device synchrony.


The brochure for the S9 CPAP / APAP series includes: CORE HARDWARE FEATURES: Automatic leakage compensation.

Hmm, does that mean it attempts to reseal or does it mean it raises the pressure to attempt to keep the therapy flow/pressure up to compensate for the air leak?

I am not a Medical professional and I don't play one on the internet.
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03-28-2016 10:02 AM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #6
RE: Do any machines try to fix leaks?
It recalculates the zero flow for inspiration-expiration zero crossing.
The pressure is constant, but the blower will speed up to maintain pressure at the additional flow from a leak -- up until the point it cannot keep up.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
03-28-2016 10:09 AM
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FrankNichols Offline

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Machine: AirSense 10 Autoset
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Resmed F10 and/or P10
Humidifier: Builtin
CPAP Pressure: 17-19
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead Other Software

Other Comments: I've figured out how to get my AHI down to 5, I quit sleeping!

Sex: Male
Location: Live Oak, Florida

Post: #7
RE: Do any machines try to fix leaks?
(03-28-2016 10:09 AM)justMongo Wrote:  It recalculates the zero flow for inspiration-expiration zero crossing.
The pressure is constant, but the blower will speed up to maintain pressure at the additional flow from a leak -- up until the point it cannot keep up.

Exactly, that is the "problem" as I see it. Wouldn't it be better to "fix" the leak by lowering the pressure so the leak can seal, and then raise the pressure again.

I know the F10 FFM has a membrane seal that is supposed to work by keeping the straps lose and then as pressure is raised, the membrane inflates and seals to the irregular contour of your face. If the pressure goes too high (or you roll over and cause a leak), the membrane collapses and will not reseal until the pressure is reduced.

I think the first answer indicated the other brands reduce pressure in the event of a major leak and then try to recover to the therapeutic pressure.

I am not a Medical professional and I don't play one on the internet.
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03-28-2016 10:19 AM
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PoolQ Online

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Post: #8
RE: Do any machines try to fix leaks?
It all depends on if it actually works or not. If the physical position of the mask cannot support high pressure, will dropping down the pressure/mask and increasing it back up (without actually moving the mask position or strap tension) some how magically make it no long leak?

Whenever my mask has leaked I have actually moved it to reseat the seal, adjusted the straps. I have tried to just push it to my face and let go and the leak returns as soon as I let go.

Will a decrease/increase of pressure reseat a mask, perhaps, I just have not experienced it as far as I know at least.
03-28-2016 11:04 AM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #9
RE: Do any machines try to fix leaks?
Many leaks won't reseal with lowered pressure.
My mask, which is similar to your F10 is supposed to "float" on the face with an inward curl to the seal lip.
I find that if it blows outward, it cannot regain that inward curl without manual manipulation.
I have been able to use a fingertip to tuck the lip back under while under pressure.
It's possible to run at 18+ with these FFMs and keep a seal... I do; and so does PaytonA.

At 10, it should be a piece of cake. Be sure to adjust straps while at pressure.
Straps need to be tight without being overly tight; it's an experience thing.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
03-28-2016 11:09 AM
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FrankNichols Offline

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Posts: 714
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Machine: AirSense 10 Autoset
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Resmed F10 and/or P10
Humidifier: Builtin
CPAP Pressure: 17-19
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead Other Software

Other Comments: I've figured out how to get my AHI down to 5, I quit sleeping!

Sex: Male
Location: Live Oak, Florida

Post: #10
RE: Do any machines try to fix leaks?
(03-28-2016 11:04 AM)PoolQ Wrote:  It all depends on if it actually works or not. If the physical position of the mask cannot support high pressure, will dropping down the pressure/mask and increasing it back up (without actually moving the mask position or strap tension) some how magically make it no long leak?

Whenever my mask has leaked I have actually moved it to reseat the seal, adjusted the straps. I have tried to just push it to my face and let go and the leak returns as soon as I let go.

Will a decrease/increase of pressure reseat a mask, perhaps, I just have not experienced it as far as I know at least.

Yeah, that seems right, I expect if the seal is popped out, it will not help to lower pressure. I guess we need a Startrek force field to keep the air in Smile

(03-28-2016 11:09 AM)justMongo Wrote:  Many leaks won't reseal with lowered pressure.
My mask, which is similar to your F10 is supposed to "float" on the face with an inward curl to the seal lip.
I find that if it blows outward, it cannot regain that inward curl without manual manipulation.
I have been able to use a fingertip to tuck the lip back under while under pressure.
It's possible to run at 18+ with these FFMs and keep a seal... I do; and so does PaytonA.

At 10, it should be a piece of cake. Be sure to adjust straps while at pressure.
Straps need to be tight without being overly tight; it's an experience thing.

Thanks, yes, it is probably not possible to fix the leaks caused by a blow out... sigh.

I am not a Medical professional and I don't play one on the internet.
Started CPAP Therapy April 5, 2016
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(This post was last modified: 03-28-2016 11:14 AM by FrankNichols.)
03-28-2016 11:13 AM
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