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Does your brain learn not to mouth breathe?
#31
RE: Does your brain learn not to mouth breathe?
The concept of the cervical collar nudging the jaw forward and closed is important. As you know, one treatment of obstructive apnea is a mandibular advancement device (MAD), or something that encourages the jaw forward. A chin strap or resting your chin on the collar does exactly the opposite. It moves the jaw back where it more likely to cause OA and hypopnea. So what you have discovered is the effect we are actually shooting for.

I look forward to you getting your SD card reader sorted out. It's been a long time that we have been using this approach of trying to make sense of your experiences and on-screen notes. I think we would have resolved most of this long ago with the better information from a detailed chart.
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#32
RE: Does your brain learn not to mouth breathe?
I use a chin strap.  I make my own out of ACE bandages.   It works for me.  

However, over time, my bandage slowly stretches out and I start mouth breathing.  Even after 13 years of CPAP.   Obviously, my tiny little brain isn't learning not to mouth breathe.

Some people have had success with that, but not me. 

If our sleeping brain could learn, you'd think it would learn to keep the airway open, and it doesn't for us apenacs.
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#33
RE: Does your brain learn not to mouth breathe?
(10-10-2017, 09:04 AM)Sleeprider Wrote: The concept of the cervical collar nudging the jaw forward and closed is important.  As you know, one treatment of obstructive apnea is a mandibular advancement device (MAD), or something that encourages the jaw forward.   A chin strap or resting your chin on the collar does exactly the opposite.  It moves the jaw back where it more likely to cause OA and hypopnea.  So what you have discovered is the effect we are actually shooting for.

I look forward to you getting your SD card reader sorted out.  It's been a long time that we have been using this approach of trying to make sense of your experiences and on-screen notes.  I think we would have resolved most of this long ago with the better information from a detailed chart.

Thanks, SleepRider. You've confirmed what I was thinking about the cervical collar and how intention is important. I tried it last night with your alternative philosophy in mind—nudging the lower jaw slightly forward near the ear and pretty much disabling it from dropping—and it worked way better. I had to use a flatter than normal bed pillow to get it right.

 It is indeed taking a while to get the equipment I need to post SleepyHead charts. But in the meantime, I have my work cut out addressing leaks that sound like a freight train.

Next task: flappy lips.
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#34
RE: Does your brain learn not to mouth breathe?
I have my collar in a position where it is pushing my jaw forward. It does this by sitting back from the front of the jaw and pushes it upwards and slightly forwards. This requires a new and fairly stiff collar. Once the collar gets old and a bit spongy it loses this effect.
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#35
RE: Does your brain learn not to mouth breathe?
(10-11-2017, 05:03 AM)holden4th Wrote: I have my collar in a position where it is pushing my jaw forward. It does this by sitting back from the front of the jaw and pushes it upwards and slightly forwards. This requires a new and fairly stiff collar. Once the collar gets old and a bit spongy it loses this effect.

Great. I get more confirmation with every post. Now that I’ve figured out that the collar needs to nudge the jaw and not serve as a chin shelf, I’m making headway on the leaks.

Thanks on the spongey tip.
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#36
RE: Does your brain learn not to mouth breathe?
Over the past month or so, I've gradually been reducing the "aids". At different points, I've used a chin strap, taping, and a mouthguard. I feel like I've been getting more and more used to nose breathing. Last night I went with no aids at all, and it seemed to go well.
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#37
RE: Does your brain learn not to mouth breathe?
I learned myself to not mouth breath, I had to as I couldn't get a Full-Faced mask to work for me.
I did it without a chin strap as well, the only problem I found was that air leaked back out of my mouth, even though it was shut, it would get out past my lips.  A chin strap did help a bit, but early morning about two hours before I was due to get up the small amount or air that did get into my mouth but not out would dry it out just enough so that it would get round inside my cheeks (of my mouth) and manage to get out past my lips.  Once that happened it was not a lot that got out, but enough to get a very dry mouth and this only made things worse.
I never found a cure for this, but if I took a drink of water, it would stop.  At the higher pressures I was at with my old machine I had to turn it off, take a drink (just enough to wet my mouth) and then start the machine again.
However, with this new machine, I can use one of those small bottles with the pop up top and keep the machine running and go straight back to sleep.

The simple answer is that you can teach yourself to breath through your nose, though you have to try to do it all the time.
If you have any problem with your nose, you might find it difficult to do, if not impossible.  I used to mouth breath nearly all the time, never thought anything about it until I went to the dentist one day and he asked "Do you always breathe through your mouth?"  Never thought about it, but this was just after I got a Nasal Mask from the Sleep Clinic when I was first diagnosed.  I couldn't wait to ask why they gave me a Nasal Mask when I was a moth breather.
I can't remember what their response was, but the first mask I got was almost all seal, it used to float around on to of your face and was hopeless, every time I moved it would break the seal and air would fly everywhere!
When I think of some of the crap masks that were around here in the early day I am surprised we got any sleep for fighting with the masks.   Thinking-about
I am NOT a doctor.  I try to help, but do not take what I say as medical advice.


Every journey, however large or small starts with the first step.

Sleep-well
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#38
RE: Does your brain learn not to mouth breathe?
I agree with Sleep2Snore that most mouth breathers also mouth breathe during the day. If you can be aware of this and focus on nasal breathing you can reset your patterns. I've managed to do this, it's not perfect and I do tend to breathe through my mouth occasionally when I sleep supine.
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#39
RE: Does your brain learn not to mouth breathe?
I believe all of us can be plastic and therefore retrain if we let ourselves.

Watched a programme on telly about a boy born with very little brain matter as he had encephalitis -the 'water in the brain condition' congenitally. MRIs showed a big 'hole' in the centre of his head where brain matter should have been but had been filled with water and thus his brain matter developed near the circumference of his scalp. He had a lot physical and mental retardation at birth. Through the years with great sacrifice from his loving parents who taught him and the medical professionals who advised them, I think about 5 years later, another MRI was carried out and the brain specialists were shocked to discover that this gap in the middle was slowly filling up with brain matter. All the experts in this field have now to revise what was always expounded i.e. if brain matter dies it can never regrow. Watch youtube-boy with no brain-extraordinary people.

Of course this growth is faster from birth till early childhood but the view is that even some people with medically termed dementia (i.e. diagnosed through brain MRIs) do not display effects of the condition if their brains are kept active. Same series of extraordinary people-some nuns who kept themselves active despite having dementia.

What I take from this is that all of us have potential to retrain if we remain open to change.
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#40
RE: Does your brain learn not to mouth breathe?
Here's my take on a technique that's worked pretty well for me:


  1. Place the tip of your tongue behind your top front teeth and let it rest against the roof of your mouth.
  2. Relax your tongue and let the sides spread out against the inside of your top molars.
  3. By sucking in ever so slightly you should be able to create a seal and a vacuum that gets you breathing through your nose.
  4. Practice this at first while awake in bed with your mask on while reading or watching TV. Then it will gradually become easier and more automatic to do when you go to sleep.
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