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Domestic Water Heater Question
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pholynyk Online

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Post: #11
RE: Domestic Water Heater Question
A nice long relaxing soak, I hope... in a big, stretch-out tub.

With sangria on the side.
02-15-2016 04:34 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Domestic Water Heater Question
(02-15-2016 08:46 AM)AlanE Wrote:  You may never run the faucet and shower at the same time but this is how you figure your GPM. Faucet is say .50-.75 and shower, if it is a low flow, around 2.6 would give you about 3.1 - 3.2 GPM flow rate.

The faucet and shower will never run at the same time.

Quote:According to the description, that unit you mentioned does a 35-40 degree f rise at a flow rate of 4 GPM and a 77 degree f rise at 1.5 GPM. 50 degree at 3 GPM should be obtainable. It's max rating is 4.8 GPM.

I agree that it should be adequate. We live in relatively warm climate.

Quote:As for parallel as long as you are not feeding the hot water back into the hot line you can have as many demand heaters tapping off the 'hot' line as you have water pressure to support. (demand heaters can't be pre-heated.)

But in the parallel scenario I described it seems I will be feeding hot water back into the hot line. I don't believe it will work. I think I will need to cut the hot water line that runs from the north end to the south end, and block it off.

Quote:Replacing the north end will be expensive. That will need to be a larger unit. With the addition of the demand heater at the south end you could install a smaller tank at the north end. Say 35-40 gallons. Just a thought.

Yes, that's a possibility. But it won't be that much more expensive.

In all cases I have access to a 3/4" gas line and electric power. And a way to vent.

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02-15-2016 06:29 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Domestic Water Heater Question
(02-15-2016 09:35 AM)Sleeprider Wrote:  A centrally located water heater is a pretty easy modification if you have a basement. Sounds like you might be on a slab.

No basement. I'm on a slab. A centrally-located heater in the attic is an option, but the installation costs will be higher. The two smaller units will be more efficient, and there will be less wait for hot water at the fixtures.

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02-15-2016 06:37 PM
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AlanE Offline

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Post: #14
RE: Domestic Water Heater Question
(02-15-2016 06:29 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  But in the parallel scenario I described it seems I will be feeding hot water back into the hot line. I don't believe it will work. I think I will need to cut the hot water line that runs from the north end to the south end, and block it off.

I think you got it. You'll go from this:
[Image: system1.png]

to this:
[Image: system2.png]

Please excuse my crude drawing. Purple is supposed to be a shower. Cool



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02-15-2016 11:15 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Domestic Water Heater Question
(02-15-2016 11:15 PM)AlanE Wrote:  Please excuse my crude drawing. Purple is supposed to be a shower. Cool

That's ok. You've captured the essence of it (cold water flows in the other direction, but that's of no consequence).

Removing that existing section of hot water line is the main issue issue I was pondering, but I'm convinced now that it will be best to remove it and cap off the ends. It's easy to get to, thankfully.

I don't have the new heater on hand yet as it's being delivered, but I have read the instructions. They call for a check valve, which I find strange as it doesn't seem to be included in any of the installation kits, and doesn't seem as readily available separately as it seems it would be if it's a usual part of an installation. Do I need it?

Also, do I need the pressure and temperature relief valve? Do I need a drain pan in case of leaks?

I haven't checked the local code yet, but I know from experience that they don't always get it right even though some things are must-comply to pass inspection.

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02-16-2016 11:23 AM
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AlanE Offline

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Post: #16
RE: Domestic Water Heater Question
(02-16-2016 11:23 AM)Sleepster Wrote:  I don't have the new heater on hand yet as it's being delivered, but I have read the instructions. They call for a check valve, which I find strange as it doesn't seem to be included in any of the installation kits, and doesn't seem as readily available separately as it seems it would be if it's a usual part of an installation. Do I need it?

This depends on code but in general, for a demand system, no. Your house supply probably has a back flow valve already. On tank systems the problem with a check valve is you may also need an expansion tank. My tank has neither :-O hasn't blown up yet.

Quote:Also, do I need the pressure and temperature relief valve? Do I need a drain pan in case of leaks?

I'll defer to local codes again but most demand systems made these days do not require one. If no relief valve, no real reason for a drip pan. If you install this in the attic, it might be a good idea. My air handler is in the attic and there is a drip pan under the unit with pvc pipe running to the outside just in case the normal drain gets clogged. I found out the hard way that the drip pan leaks. :\ Now have stained popcorn in the garage. Just one more project to add to my list.

Quote:I haven't checked the local code yet, but I know from experience that they don't always get it right even though some things are must-comply to pass inspection.
If you live in an area where it is okay for you to do all this work, maybe put in a call to one of their code enforcement and ask them if you need t&p, expansion, drip pan... or don't call them. Wink



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02-16-2016 04:33 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Domestic Water Heater Question
(02-16-2016 04:33 PM)AlanE Wrote:  My air handler is in the attic and there is a drip pan under the unit with pvc pipe running to the outside just in case the normal drain gets clogged. I found out the hard way that the drip pan leaks.

I just had a new HVAC system installed in my attic last Spring. Code requires a drip pan with a (secondary) drain pipe sticking one foot out above a window! I haven't checked mine for leaks!!

Quote:If you live in an area where it is okay for you to do all this work, maybe put in a call to one of their code enforcement and ask them if you need t&p, expansion, drip pan... or don't call them. Wink

I'll call them and see what they say ...

OMG! Need a drain pan with a line going out of the house and down to within a foot of the ground. Also need a pressure (but not temperature) relief valve. It must have its own separate drain line conforming to the above, but also be CPVC or the like to handle high temperature water. A permit is required! No wonder installations are so expensive.

I didn't inquire about DIY options because I don't want to have that conversation, I just told him I wanted to be informed before I started interviewing contractors.

I think if I were to do it myself I'd not bother with the permit. The drain pan and pressure relief valve sound like a good idea, but I think I could just tee the drain line into that existing secondary drain line for the HVAC pan.

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02-16-2016 05:12 PM
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AlanE Offline

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Post: #18
RE: Domestic Water Heater Question
Sounds like fun. We need permits to replace water heaters in this county. Why, I don't know... It's not that hard to do so my only guess is they want the permit fee.



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02-16-2016 09:22 PM
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Post: #19
RE: Domestic Water Heater Question
> I'm thinking of eliminating the circulator pump kit

That would be a good idea. You'll save a bunch of money.

There is no difference between a water heater with a circulator pump and hot-water heat woth a circulator pump.

The cost of having hot water always available is whatever it costs for the heat you lose from the pipes as well as whatever it costs to run your air conditioner to get rid of he heat you just paid to create.

I'd just put another heater in near where you need the hot water.
02-19-2016 08:31 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Domestic Water Heater Question
I spent about 8 hours total over the last three days installing the tankless unit. It's a success! She said it took only about 20 seconds to get hot water at the shower. The sink, which is a bit further, takes about 35 seconds to get hot enough to hurt. Perfectly acceptable.

I eliminated a 25 ft run of 3/4" galvanized steel pipe that carried the hot water from the north end of the house to this bathroom at the south end. That's over a half a gallon of water! Most of that is a single 21 ft long piece. I hate to cut it in half, but that's the only way I'll ever get it out of the attic!

At the north end of the house is the laundry room, kitchen, and another bathroom, currently still being served by the old tank water heater. I would like to replace it, too, but do I really need a larger tankless unit than the one I just put in? It's not like I'll be taking a shower while the washer or dish washer is running. I suppose if someone wanted to wash their hands while one of the appliances is running and happens to be calling for water it would tax the system, but that seems like a minor inconvenience.

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02-21-2016 10:34 PM
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