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[Equipment] ...And then there was heat!
#11
(06-15-2012, 04:57 PM)SuperSleeper Wrote:
(06-15-2012, 12:51 PM)BabyDoc Wrote: (The practical significance for me is that I must remove the water from the chamber when I use my S9 on the Sabbath, when I am required to have the S9 run continuously rather than turn it on and off between usages.

Just a thought, but the S9 has an "Auto On / Auto Off" function that will "sense" whether or not your mask is on or off and turn on and off the machine automatically, without you having to push any buttons.

Not sure this would be compliant with Jewish Sabbath requirements, but it could be a solution for you since technically, it's not you doing the work of turning the machine off - it's the machine itself that does it. I would think this would be the same as leaving a refrigerator on during the Sabbath - the compressor cycles on and off during that time automatically, and it's not you that's doing the turning off and on... it's the refrigerator.

Unfortunately, using auto-on, auto-off is not compliant with Sabbath laws. (I actually use that Auto on/off feature during the week, but turn it off for the Sabbath.) When you take that breath in, you are actually initiating the turn-on of the machine. It is your intention by taking that breath that the machine WILL turn on, so it is really the same as if you blew onto a very sensitive on/off switch; would be just as prohibited as actually pushing the switch.

It's different from a refrigerator. When you open the door on the refrigerator, the compressor doesn't immediately cylcle on. It cycles on after some variable delay that may depend upon other factors other than you opening the door. It depends on the room temperature, the temperature and contents of the refrigerator, and how long you keep the door open. Sometimes, the compressor may not cycle on at all when you open the door. Furthermore, it isn't your intention to have the refrigerator compressor turn on when you open the door. But with your S9, your intention to have it turn on, and it ALWAYS will turn on as soon as you take a breath or two.

I should also point out that when it comes to your health and possibly shortening your logevity by not doing something, there are many leniencies when it comes to Jewish laws on Sabbath. You health comes first. For examople, if the CPAP machine needed to be turned on and off manually, because it might burn up if you ran it continuously, many rabbi's would permit your doing so. But we all know that isn't the case, so we let our machines run continuously. But to the extent you can limit what you are doing that doesn't comply with the laws, you are supposed to do it as much as you can. For example, there is no way that when my machine is running continuosly off of my face, not to cause some electrical change in the way the machine runs, when I put my mask on. When I put the mask on, it does cause the machine's motor to slow down. I can't help that and still use the machine.

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#12
(06-15-2012, 03:36 PM)mjbearit Wrote:
(06-15-2012, 12:51 PM)BabyDoc Wrote: How much moisture gets delivered in "passover" mode depends on the flow rate, not just the temperature.

In fact, if I turn the heat off on my humidifier, and let my machine run with my mask removed from my face, it WILL spray water through the tube and out the mask in only a few minutes.
(The practical significance for me is that I must remove the water from the chamber when I use my S9 on the Sabbath, when I am required to have the S9 run continuously rather than turn it on and off between usages. Otherwise, until the water gets depleted, I will get a face full of moisture even without the heater turned on.)

Well you are also comparing apples to oranges. First off, you need to understand that not all Heated humidifiers are created equal. I have an on and an off. I don't have a high, medium and low. The higher the heat, the more moisture will be in vapor form. Basic science.
Secondly it has to do with a lot more than heat and pressure. A lot has to do with how the water chamber and machine are designed. On mine the air blows straight down on the water and the hose comes straight up from the opposite corner. Yours may or may not be designed that way, I've never seen one of those in person so I can't even judge, but a different design could easily lead to water being forced out by air pressure.
Also, don't forget that water is a liquid and as such will seek the lowest point. As soon as the vapor begins to cool and condensates back into water, it will seek the lowest point, which if it is your mask, guess where it is going? My machine sits in the open second drawer of my night stand. It is a good 2 feet lower than I am and I have never, with my old "un-heated" machine, or last night/this morning with my new heated model had water come out of my mask. I also have a hose cover on my machine which will also help keep the water in vapor form for longer to assist with little to no rain-out.
I don't understand the reference to turning the machine off and on because of the Sabbath. I've just never heard of that before. I am Catholic (albeit a bad Catholic) and we have certain dispensations for physical needs in dealing with the practice of our religion. Is this not the case in Judaism? I mean a CPAP is not just a life choice or a fashion statement, it truly is a life saving device. I apologize if it sounds like I am being "mean" or anything I just am trying to understand why it would be forbidden to use the machine during this time. And by use I mean whatever is necessary such as turning on and off, adjusting humidification, etc.
Now one thought just occurred to me in that if you have water vapor that has condensated on the inside of your hose and your hose was laying flat or coiled, you could pick up a considerable amount of water after it has been off all day and that could blow at you upon first turning the machine on. I have a hook up high that I put my mask on every morning so even if there were anything in the hose it would drain back into the tank during the day and allow the hose to dry out. Just a thought.

My machine runs continuously on Sabbath. I have a climate line tube. It doesn't matter whether that heated tube is turned on or off, whether you get water in the hose, when the machine is running continuously with the the mask is off your face. Because of the high flow rate of the air over the surface of the water, turbulance is set up in the water and it is forced out the tube at a rate that even the climate line can't keep up with. The tube is much higher than the machine and water still sprays out the mask when the flow rate is maximum

Yes, you are right. Judaism, does permit you to do just about anything necessary to prolong a life. That's why you can use a CPAP machine.
Not to do so for 52 Sabbaths's a year, not to mention all of the Jewish holidays for which you are forbidden to turn on and off electrical devices, could have an adverse effect on your life longevity. Still, it is expected to do what you can do to minimize what is necessary when it comes to turning the machine on and off. That's why I let it run, since it won't hurt the machine. In the case of a humidifier, it isn't a life and death issue whether I use it or not. It is mostly a comfort issue. That's why I turn mine off. (If I couldn't otherwise sleep with it off, I am sure my rabbi would allow me to leave it on.) The trouble is that with leaving the machine on all of the time at full blast (remember with no mask on there is a full leak and the machine runs with maximum flow), that chamber will go dry real fast, not to mention all the water that would be in that mask when I put it on.

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#13
I'm not a Judaism expert by any means, but if the goal of the Sabbath laws is to make sure that no work is done in compliance with the Law, it would seem to me that physically removing the mask creates more work than simply allowing the machine to use it's auto-off function to kick in (a simple electrical switch). So the greater work of mask removal is okay, but the smaller work of allowing a switch to turn off is not okay?

In addition, on the surface, it would seem that you are adding to the workload by keeping the machine going during Sabbath. The machine is using electricity during this time (Sabbath). Someone must be working to during the Sabbath to keep the electrical grid up and running, so essentially, by keeping the machine running during that time, you're forcing other people (electrical grid workers, power plant workers) to do extra work during the Sabbath so that you don't have to turn a switch off and on. I agree, it's a small amount of extra work they must do, but certainly equal to or greater than you allowing the machine to automatically turn off when you remove your mask.

Not sure how that fits in with Jewish Laws, but it is right to ask other people to do more work on the Sabbath so that you do less work on the Sabbath, or is that okay?


SuperSleeper
Apnea Board Administrator
www.ApneaBoard.com


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.



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#14
Doc,

I have complete respect for your beliefs and your convictions. If I say something stupid below, it is only my ignorance. I mean no slight whatsoever.

I have one concern and one recommendation.

CONCERN: You have an AutoSet and you let it run wide open on Sabbath days. Does this constant high flow change how the algorithm applies treatment pressures? The machine doesn't know you're not there. There was a white paper posted on this forum some time ago from Resmed that gave a basic description of how the Auto pressure control algorithm functioned. Might be worth consulting.

Your profile also indicates you're using review software, so you've likely already looked at the I&E pressure charts, etc. to make sure this is not the case. CPAP is tough enough without potentially confusing the machine.

RECOMMEDATION: Take an old mask, put some duct tape over most of it, and install this at the end of the hose on days when you need to run the machine constantly. Hook up to your normal mask when you go to bed.

I think a small continous flow would not blow water into the hose. Will the water tank last through this? Don't know, I'd think it might be worth a try. Can't hurt if the humifier is in passover mode already. You might be able to get some humidity during these days.


Sheh-Hashem Yihyeh Otcha (really hope I got this right)
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#15
I think we are going a bit off track with this discussion, but when it comes to "work" as defined in Jewish law, it is more complex than just defining it as putting forth an effort. If that were the case, we would be required to drive on Sabbath instead of being requried to put forth the effort to walk. In both driving and switching an electrical appliance, the issue is not one of effort but rather whether you are creating a fire or putting out a fire. We are not permitted to do either on the Sabbath, although we are permitted to benefit from a fire that is already lit prior to Sabbath. Turning on an electrical appliance or creating a spark and burning gasoline in a car's engine is considered in the category of a fire. Even though there is no actual fire, there are potentials for sparks or fires with electrical connections. As long as the appliance is running prior to Sabbath, there is no problem with benefitting from it on the Sabbath. That's why I leave my S9 turned on.

As far as other people working on electrical grids like power plant workers, we don't worry about that in the United states, because we are only asking Jewish people to adhere to these laws. In the US the power companies are usually owned by a municipality and the majority of the people working there are non Jews. We can, under certain circumstances, ask non Jews to do certain things for us on the Sabbath, but only if the non Jew will also benefit by the action he is doing for the Jew. So in the case of the power plant, the non-Jew benefits from the running the power plant at the same time he helps the Jews. He gets power, too. However, it IS an issue in Israel, where there are many non religious Jews working on Sabbath in these Jewish owned plants. The orthodox Jews there can't ask a non-religious Jew to do what they wouldn't be permitted to do themselves. In fact, some orthodox temples in Israel have their own generators running during the Sabbath, when the power company is owned by Jews. These generators go on before Sabbath and run throughout.
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#16
(06-18-2012, 12:42 PM)jdireton Wrote: Doc,

I have complete respect for your beliefs and your convictions. If I say something stupid below, it is only my ignorance. I mean no slight whatsoever.

I have one concern and one recommendation.

CONCERN: You have an AutoSet and you let it run wide open on Sabbath days. Does this constant high flow change how the algorithm applies treatment pressures? The machine doesn't know you're not there. There was a white paper posted on this forum some time ago from Resmed that gave a basic description of how the Auto pressure control algorithm functioned. Might be worth consulting.

Your profile also indicates you're using review software, so you've likely already looked at the I&E pressure charts, etc. to make sure this is not the case. CPAP is tough enough without potentially confusing the machine.

RECOMMEDATION: Take an old mask, put some duct tape over most of it, and install this at the end of the hose on days when you need to run the machine constantly. Hook up to your normal mask when you go to bed.

I think a small continous flow would not blow water into the hose. Will the water tank last through this? Don't know, I'd think it might be worth a try. Can't hurt if the humifier is in passover mode already. You might be able to get some humidity during these days.


Sheh-Hashem Yihyeh Otcha (really hope I got this right)

If the machine is on full continuous flow, the machine knows that you aren't actually using the machine. (It knows this because if you were there, there wouldn't be a constant unchanging leak and constant flow) Furthermore, while running continuously, it doesn't record that as a mask event or personal usage time. My personal usage time is still only 7.5 hours, when the machine is running for 24 hours. When you use the ResMed software, it DOES say that your maximum leak is about 139 liters/min. The median leak for the night, however, remains for me about 0.0. As soon as I put my mask on, that leak of 139 liters/min, drops down to whatever the vent leak is for my mask (nasal pillows) and the pressure drops down to the low end of my range which is 6.0 cm water. It really doesn't hurt anything. It doesn't even adversely affect the AHI numbers.

I like your idea of a paritially obstructed old mask to restrict the flow through the machine while the machine is continuously running. That WOULD keep the flow down and keep water from spraying out the mask. HOWEVER, it would fool the machine into thinking I was actually using it. Then it would "think" there was an obstructive event and put the pressure up. That might not be a big deal, because once I put the regular mask on, it would probably quickly correct back down to the baseline of 6.0 cm of pressure. But now my AHI numbers would be messed up. Another issue is I DO get up during the night to use the bathroom. During those couple of minutes, I would have to put the old duct taped mask back on the machine in order to prevent the spray out.
I am not sure it is all worth the effort. But thanks for the idea.
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#17
Could you put the mask on a mannequin head or something like that? The machine would not see breathing, so it shouldn't try to adjust or record any data.

By the way, do not block the hose off completely. Your machine might overheat. It would be OK if you put it on a mannequin because the total air flow through the vents would be the same.

The mannequin head would look creepy, but it might not seal if you put it on something that isn't face shaped.
Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
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#18
(06-19-2012, 12:59 AM)archangle Wrote: Could you put the mask on a mannequin head or something like that? The machine would not see breathing, so it shouldn't try to adjust or record any data.

By the way, do not block the hose off completely. Your machine might overheat. It would be OK if you put it on a mannequin because the total air flow through the vents would be the same.

The mannequin head would look creepy, but it might not seal if you put it on something that isn't face shaped.

Hmm, that's a thought. You really can't block off the mask completley because the mask has a vent. The machine wouldn't overheat. I do actually have a mannequin heads that my wife uses for her wigs. I'll give it a try, but I doubt that I can get any kind of a seal with a firm plastic face or enough of a seal to slow the flow rate down significantly. Even if I could, I would still have to readjust the mask straps each time I switched from the mannequin's face to mine, unless I had a separate mask for the manequin, and switched the tubing to my own face mask, when I needed to use the APAP.
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#19
(06-19-2012, 08:20 AM)BabyDoc Wrote: Hmm, that's a thought. You really can't block off the mask completley because the mask has a vent. The machine wouldn't overheat. I do actually have a mannequin heads that my wife uses for her wigs. I'll give it a try, but I doubt that I can get any kind of a seal with a firm plastic face or enough of a seal to slow the flow rate down significantly. Even if I could, I would still have to readjust the mask straps each time I switched from the mannequin's face to mine, unless I had a separate mask for the manequin, and switched the tubing to my own face mask, when I needed to use the APAP.

You could make yourself something that amounts to a cork with holes. Something like a piece of pipe that fits in the hose end, capped off on one end, and drill some holes in it.

Holy cork, Batman!
Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
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#20
How about a one-hole or two-hole rubber stopper, or cork? Like the kind you find in a high school chemistry lab. They should have them at your local hardware store or home center.
Sleepster
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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