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[Equipment] Definition of ventilator
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PoolQ Offline

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Post: #1
Question Definition of ventilator
If I read the Resmed web site correctly the ST is for syncing to a ventilator, do you use a ventilator?
Check to see if "easy-Breathe" is turned on, try turning it on if it is not already on.
04-14-2016 01:13 PM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #2
RE: Aircurve 10 ST Pressure Drop
The ST stands for Spontaneous-Timed. The patient may initiate switch to IPAP by a Spontaneous breath. If the patient does not initiate a Spontaneous breath by a set time, the machine switches to IPAP on a Timed backup rate.

ST is used for CA; but is not as good as the ASV at treating CA.

If "easybreathe" is a menu option, it will smooth the transitions.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
04-14-2016 01:53 PM
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PoolQ Offline

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Machine: AirCurve 10 VAUTO
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Post: #3
RE: Aircurve 10 ST Pressure Drop
From the Resmed site
"The AirCurve 10 ST is a bilevel device with backup rate that provides exceptional patient–ventilator synchrony"

"In ST mode, the device augments any breath initiated by the patient, but will also supply additional
breaths should the patient breath rate fall below the set "backup" breath rate."

Perhaps the "patient–ventilator synchrony" is not what it is made for and just that it does play well with a ventilator.
04-14-2016 02:07 PM
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palerider Offline

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Post: #4
RE: Aircurve 10 ST Pressure Drop
(04-14-2016 02:07 PM)PoolQ Wrote:  Perhaps the "patient–ventilator synchrony" is not what it is made for and just that it does play well with a ventilator.

the ST machine *IS* a ventilator.
04-14-2016 02:29 PM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #5
RE: Aircurve 10 ST Pressure Drop
(04-14-2016 02:07 PM)PoolQ Wrote:  From the Resmed site
"The AirCurve 10 ST is a bilevel device with backup rate that provides exceptional patient–ventilator synchrony"

"In ST mode, the device augments any breath initiated by the patient, but will also supply additional
breaths should the patient breath rate fall below the set "backup" breath rate."

Perhaps the "patient–ventilator synchrony" is not what it is made for and just that it does play well with a ventilator.

I think you're misreading that. It's not intended to play with a ventilator. The backup rate initiates IPAP to inflate the lungs when the patient does not do so. It's "sort of" an ASV lite. But not nearly the machine an ASV is.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
04-14-2016 02:50 PM
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PoolQ Offline

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Post: #6
RE: Aircurve 10 ST Pressure Drop
Well I seem to learn something new every day.
Ventilator uses and types
Continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP)
These devices provide a continuous level of positive pressure throughout the inspiratory and expiratory breath cycles.
The pressure is not sufficient to completely inflate the lungs, but provides enough to maintain an open airway. In the home care setting, CPAP is often used to treat sleep apnea , in which a patient's airway closes frequently during sleep

It seems that ALL CPAP (CPAP, APAP, BiLevel, ASV) devices ARE ventilators, at least according to http://www.livingwithavent.com/pages.aspx?page=Basics/Who

Now that I actually think about it I have no idea why someone would be using a CPAP machine at the same time as a more capable ventilator, so syncing these two devices would not make sense.

A ventilator does not have to be able to inflate your lungs or even be able to trigger you to breathe

So what are they talking about regarding the ST version:
1. patient’s breaths (neural) and ventilator-assisted breaths (phase asynchrony)
2. ventilator’s flow delivery to match the patient’s flow demand (flow asynchrony).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3742330/

For some reason I think that all CPAP machines do this pretty well as it would not help much if you could not sync pressure changes to breathing. I would also assume that a static CPAP machine would not need to do this.

"The backup rate initiates IPAP to inflate the lungs when the patient does not do so" from what I have read, CPAP machines of all the standard types do not have enough pressure to inflate the lungs and only try and trigger the patient to inhale. Full blown ventilators use 60 cmH2O to actually inflate the lungs

"the ST machine *IS* a ventilator" quite true as it is for any and all CPAP machines regardless of mode.

With your input and some searching on the web I think this is now accurate and I would tend to accept published definitions from what I believe are reputable sites, so if I am again inaccurate please dispute the sites I quoted.
(This post was last modified: 04-14-2016 03:56 PM by PoolQ.)
04-14-2016 03:51 PM
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palerider Offline

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Post: #7
RE: Aircurve 10 ST Pressure Drop
(04-14-2016 03:51 PM)PoolQ Wrote:  so if I am again inaccurate please dispute the sites I quoted.

I'll correct you, since it's important not to have erroneous information left to mislead others. and if you'd pick better sources, instead of ones that support your misconceptions, you'd end up with better information.

A medical ventilator (or simply ventilator in context) is a machine designed to mechanically move breathable air into and out of the lungs, to provide the mechanism of breathing for a patient who is physically unable to breathe, or breathing insufficiently.

so, NOT a plain cpap, or even bilevel.

A ventilator uses pressure to blow air or a mixture of gases (like oxygen and air) into the lungs. This pressure is known as positive pressure. You usually exhale (breathe out) the air on your own, but sometimes the ventilator does this for you too.

so, again, NOT a plain cpap, or even bilevel.

ventilators come in two types, invasive, which we aren't talking about here, and Non InVasive, (NIV) which we are. machines with a timed backup rate, that will increase pressure with the intent of forcing air into your lungs when you don't breath on your own, are considered NIV machines. ST, *vaps and ASV fall into that category.
04-14-2016 04:07 PM
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PoolQ Offline

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Post: #8
RE: Aircurve 10 ST Pressure Drop
Okay. First I did not search lots of sites to find ones that supported my misconceptions. In fact I was quite surprised at what I found, I did not and really still do not consider CPAP devices to be ventilator. My uneducated idea of a ventilator is a machine that is capable of completely taking over the breathing of the patient, as in inflating the lungs without any effort by the patient. I do now believe that this definition is more restricted than it should be.

The site I quoted is for a public health care manufacturer with over 85,000 employees and offering an extensive line of products http://www.medtronic.com/us-en/healthcar...ducts.html Now if this public company that has been in business since 1949 does not understand what ventilators are, well then I give up.

So I quoted my sources, may I ask what yours are? Edit: ah well never mind I see that you did indeed include links to Wikipedia, the ultimate source of knowledge in all things. Funny that while in collage we were told specifically that we could not use Wikipedia as a quoted source for what the professor suggested were obvious reasons.

by the way, I must add that you have made many assumptions without any evidence at all about my sources and motivation regarding them.

A ventilator uses pressure to blow air or a mixture of gases (like oxygen and air) into the lungs. This pressure is known as positive pressure. You usually exhale (breathe out) the air on your own, but sometimes the ventilator does this for you too.

I would suggest that this is exactly what a positive airway pressure machine is. "uses pressure to blow air " "into the lungs" "This pressure is known as positive pressure" is that not exactly what CPAP is and does?
(This post was last modified: 04-14-2016 04:35 PM by PoolQ.)
04-14-2016 04:23 PM
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PoolQ Offline

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Post: #9
RE: Aircurve 10 ST Pressure Drop
(04-14-2016 02:50 PM)justMongo Wrote:  
(04-14-2016 02:07 PM)PoolQ Wrote:  From the Resmed site
"The AirCurve 10 ST is a bilevel device with backup rate that provides exceptional patient–ventilator synchrony"

"In ST mode, the device augments any breath initiated by the patient, but will also supply additional
breaths should the patient breath rate fall below the set "backup" breath rate."

Perhaps the "patient–ventilator synchrony" is not what it is made for and just that it does play well with a ventilator.


I think you're misreading that. It's not intended to play with a ventilator. The backup rate initiates IPAP to inflate the lungs when the patient does not do so. It's "sort of" an ASV lite. But not nearly the machine an ASV is.

Given that CPAP machines are ventilators then "exceptional patient–ventilator synchrony"
means that this machine does a very good job of reacting to the patients natural breathing rhythm when it decides to change pressure.

Edit: just to make sure I am clear, I am agreeing with you justMongo
(This post was last modified: 04-14-2016 04:57 PM by PoolQ.)
04-14-2016 04:49 PM
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palerider Offline

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Post: #10
RE: Aircurve 10 ST Pressure Drop
you must have missed the link sourcing the comment from NIH.GOV.

and, no, a cpap does not blow *anything* into the lungs. you have to use normal respiration to do that.

simply put, a ventilator is a device that *breaths for you* when you are unable to do so.

a cpap, or plain bilevel, DO NOT DO THAT.

cpaps and bilevels DO NOT TREAT central apnea, NIV machines do.
(This post was last modified: 04-14-2016 05:43 PM by palerider.)
04-14-2016 05:43 PM
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