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[Equipment] Setting up 12VDC BiPap Auto to be the same as 24VCD Resmed A10 for camping use?
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verbatim1 Offline

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Post: #1
Setting up 12VDC BiPap Auto to be the same as 24VCD Resmed A10 for camping use?
How do I match current settings in the ResMed AirSense 10 Audoset to the Philips Respironics BiPAP Auto Bi_Flex?
http://i.cubeupload.com/oVB12T.jpg
----------------------------
I'm only a few weeks into CPAP, where, on another thread, I found out, much to my chagrin, that the new Resmed A10 I received from Kaiser uses a hugely non-standard power supply when camping.

In discussing possible solutions with a very good friend of mine, he mentioned that I can borrow his spare Philips Respironics Bi-PAP Auto Bi-Flex 750P any time I want to go camping (or if my power goes out for an appreciable period of time).
[Image: oVB12T.jpg]

My friend says he hooks it directly up to a normal 12VDC car battery, and he has had no problems, and that I can borrow it for months at a time (he said to simply give it back if his current machine ever breaks).

So my only question here is how to "match" my Resmed A10 clinical settings to the strange words used on this Philips Respironics Bi-PAP Auto Bi-Flex 750P machine.
----------------------------
I was able to get the ResMed AirSense 10 Audoset machine in "clinician mode" by simultaneously holding down the round button and the home button for a few seconds until the machine beeped and put me in Clinician Mode.

Here are my ResMed AirSense 10 Audoset settings from Kaiser
THERAPY:
- Mode = Autoset
- Max Pressure = 20.0
- Min Pressure = 10.00
- Mask = Nasal
COMFORT:
- Ramp Time = Off
- EPR = On
- EPR Type = Full Time
- EPR Level = 2
- Humidity Level = Off
Accessories:
- Tube = SlimLine
- AB Filter = No
Options:
- Essentials = Plus
- SmartStart = On
Reminders:
- Mask = Off
- Water Tub = Off
- Tube = Off
- Filter = Of
----------------------------
I was able to get the Philips Respironics BiPAP Auto Bi-Flex machine in "clinician mode" by setting the display to "Settings" and then holding down the round and ramp buttons simultaneously for a few seconds until the machine beeped and put me in Clinician Mode.

Here are my friend's current Respironics BiPap settings:
Blower Hours:
- Total hours: 15834.1
Setup:
- Mode = Auto
- Max IPAP = 20.0
- Min EPAP = 8.0
- Max PS = 3.0
- Flex Type = Bi-Flex
- Bi-Flex = 3
- SYSTEM = X2
- LOCK SYS = off
- Ramp Time = 0:10
- Ramp Start = 7.5
- Auto on = on
- Auto off = on
- Mask alert = on
- Humidifier = off
- Show AHI = on
- Split night = off
----------------------------
From what I understand of the Kaiser settings, all I really need to know are these three data points, right?
1. The ResMed is set to automatic,
2. Between 10 and 20 cm of water,
3. With an expiration of 2 cm below that of inspiration

Given those are the 3 fundamental settings (AFAIK), this post is to ask what would the equivalent settings be for the Philips Respironics BiPAP Auto Bi_Flex?
(This post was last modified: 06-06-2016 02:26 PM by verbatim1.)
06-06-2016 02:14 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Setting up 12VDC BiPap Auto to be the same as 24VCD Resmed A10 for camping use?
I'm familiar with the BiPAP settings, but not the auto-BiPAP that your friend owns. I'm under the impression that there's a fourth setting, which is the Min PS. However, that may be not selectable because the Max PS is set so low. I'm just guessing.

In my opinion, you could leave the settings the same. With a Min EPAP of 8.0 and a PS of 3.0, the Min IPAP would be 11.0, which is close to your minimum pressure of 10.0. You could turn Bi-Flex off or adjust as you like for comfort. Your EPR is set at 2, so setting the Max PS at 2 would be roughly equivalent. Or, you could set the Max PS at zero and set Bi-Flex to 2. I don't think you'd notice a difference.

The advantage to leaving the settings alone is that you don't have to worry about changing them back.

To fully protect that BiPAP there is a special cable that contains a couple of very large surge arresters, so having the proper cable may be necessary to prevent damage.

Another option is for you to buy the 12-volt to 24-volt converter cable that would allow you to run your machine on a battery.

Sleepster
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
06-06-2016 07:42 PM
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verbatim1 Offline

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Machine: Remstar Auto
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: F&P Eson Nasak Mask SL-Large for CPAP or bi-level venti
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 10 to 20
CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic

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Post: #3
RE: Setting up 12VDC BiPap Auto to be the same as 24VCD Resmed A10 for camping use?
(06-06-2016 07:42 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  I'm familiar with the BiPAP settings, but not the auto-BiPAP that your friend owns. I'm under the impression that there's a fourth setting, which is the Min PS. However, that may be not selectable because the Max PS is set so low. I'm just guessing.
I don't know what "Max PS" is (maximum pressure?), but I can set it from 3.0 to 8.0 in 0.5 increments. But even when set at 8.0, I don't see any "Min PS" setting show up.

I changed the "Flex type" from "Bi-Pap" to "none", but that didn't cause a "Min PS" setting to show up either (although it did add a "Rise Time" of from 0 to 3.0).

(06-06-2016 07:42 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  In my opinion, you could leave the settings the same. With a Min EPAP of 8.0 and a PS of 3.0, the Min IPAP would be 11.0, which is close to your minimum pressure of 10.0.
I just want to set it up the same (or as close as I can get).
The terms are new to me, so I'm very confused.

I just changed the "Min EPAP" from 8.0 to 7.0, and left the "Max PS" at 3.0 (which is as low as it will go).

So does that give me a minimum inhale of 10 cm of water?

(06-06-2016 07:42 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  You could turn Bi-Flex off or adjust as you like for comfort.
Am I correct that the Philips "Bi-Flex" is the same thing as ResMed "APAP"?
If so, it means it's automatic, right?
That's pretty much what I want:
a. Automiatic
b. 10cm to 20cm inhale pressure
c. 2cm water exhale relief (i.e., 8cm to 18cm automatic exhale)

(06-06-2016 07:42 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  Your EPR is set at 2, so setting the Max PS at 2 would be roughly equivalent. Or, you could set the Max PS at zero and set Bi-Flex to 2. I don't think you'd notice a difference.
It won't set the "Max PS" any lower than 3.0; so I can't do that, unfortunately.

(06-06-2016 07:42 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  The advantage to leaving the settings alone is that you don't have to worry about changing them back.
My friend was very clear about not worrying about that.
He said to set it up any way I wanted to.
(He has multiple machines.)

(06-06-2016 07:42 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  To fully protect that BiPAP there is a special cable that contains a couple of very large surge arresters, so having the proper cable may be necessary to prevent damage.
Do you mean for when it's on a car battery?
Where would surges come from in a DC battery?
I know that the faster a voltage changes, with an inductor load, large spikes can form (with the opposite happening with capacitive loads); but just hooking up a battery shouldn't be any different than plugging the device into a power supply.

What's different about hooking to a 12V battery?

(06-06-2016 07:42 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  Another option is for you to buy the 12-volt to 24-volt converter cable that would allow you to run your machine on a battery.
Thanks for that advice to give in to ResMed's marketing plan.

Both my friend and I immensly dislike hugely successful companies like Apple (and apparently ResMed) who lock their captive users into their "walled garden" environment, expressly designed to lock their users into their own products and nobody elses.

Let's face it. 12 volts DC is standard stuff.
A 24-volt power supply with an integral sense resistor is ridiculous, as far as I can tell (although there's a separate thread on that topic so I don't want to argue it here).

Suffice to say "my" solution will simply be to set up this spare machine so that it works off a car battery.

I just need advice for how to set up a Phillips Bi-Pap Auto Bi-Flex so that it outputs 10cm to 20cm of water with an exhale relief of about 2 cm of water.
06-06-2016 10:47 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Machine: ResMed AirCurve10 VAuto
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CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Diagnosed Nov 2011. Conquered aerophagia.

Sex: Male
Location: Houston, Texas

Post: #4
RE: Setting up 12VDC BiPap Auto to be the same as 24VCD Resmed A10 for camping use?
Okay, let's go over a few basics.

Right now your ResMed machine is set up to deliver a pressure between 10 and 20. So it starts out at 10, raises the pressure when needed to keep your airway open, and lowers it when the higher pressure is not needed. It will go all the way to 20 if necessary. You have EPR set at 3, so when you exhale the pressure drops by 3. (By the way, I think those settings could be tweaked to improve the effectiveness of your therapy, but that's another discussion).

Your friend's BiPAP has an extra degree of freedom in that it can be set to lower the pressure when you exhale by more than 3. This number is called the pressure support, or PS. So setting the PS to 3 will make the BiPAP behave like your ResMed with its EPR set to 3. Roughly.

Now, Bi-Flex is like EPR. It reduces the pressure even more when you exhale. You might think this redundant and to a large extent it is, but it lowers the pressure in a smoother way, or so they claim.

Perhaps now my original reply will make a bit more sense to you. Set the Max PS to 3 and turn Bi-Flex off. Set the Min EPAP to 7 and the Max IPAP to 20. That will get you very close to what you have now. If you like, you can adjust the Bi-Flex to whatever you find more comfortable.

As to the surge arresters, if you're hooked up to a car battery, and the car is running, you could get surges. I guess. All I know is that those arresters are there, and they're pretty big in size. I assume they are essentially choke coils.

Sleepster
Apnea Board Moderator
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
06-06-2016 11:01 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Posts: 4,991
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Machine: ResMed AirCurve10 VAuto
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F&P Simplus
Humidifier: HumidAir and SlimLine Hose
CPAP Pressure: MaxI 13.6 | MinE 5.2 | PS 4.4
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Diagnosed Nov 2011. Conquered aerophagia.

Sex: Male
Location: Houston, Texas

Post: #5
RE: Setting up 12VDC BiPap Auto to be the same as 24VCD Resmed A10 for camping use?
(06-06-2016 10:47 PM)verbatim1 Wrote:  I just changed the "Min EPAP" from 8.0 to 7.0, and left the "Max PS" at 3.0 (which is as low as it will go).

So does that give me a minimum inhale of 10 cm of water?

Yes.

Sleepster
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
06-06-2016 11:08 PM
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verbatim1 Offline

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Machine: Remstar Auto
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: F&P Eson Nasak Mask SL-Large for CPAP or bi-level venti
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 10 to 20
CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic

Other Comments:

Sex: Undisclosed
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Post: #6
RE: Setting up 12VDC BiPap Auto to be the same as 24VCD Resmed A10 for camping use?
(06-06-2016 11:01 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  Right now your ResMed machine is set up to deliver a pressure between 10 and 20. So it starts out at 10, raises the pressure when needed to keep your airway open, and lowers it when the higher pressure is not needed. It will go all the way to 20 if necessary. You have EPR set at 3, so when you exhale the pressure drops by 3.
Thanks for summarizing how it works. I appreciate the basics.
(06-06-2016 11:01 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  Your friend's BiPAP has an extra degree of freedom in that it can be set to lower the pressure when you exhale by more than 3. This number is called the pressure support, or PS. So setting the PS to 3 will make the BiPAP behave like your ResMed with its EPR set to 3. Roughly.
Thanks for the advice about the pressure support.
I really don't "need" all that much pressure support, if any, but, that's how Kaiser set up the ResMed so I just want to start at the same starting point when I set up the Philips BiPAP Auto Bi-Flex machine.
(06-06-2016 11:01 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  Now, Bi-Flex is like EPR. It reduces the pressure even more when you exhale. You might think this redundant and to a large extent it is, but it lowers the pressure in a smoother way, or so they claim.
Oh. I didn't realize that.

I had thought the "bi-flex" was the bi-pap; so yet again, the marketing guys have confused the heck out of me. Thanks for clarifying that the bi-flex part is essentially "more reduction in exhalation pressure".
(06-06-2016 11:01 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  Set the Max PS to 3 and turn Bi-Flex off. Set the Min EPAP to 7 and the Max IPAP to 20. That will get you very close to what you have now. If you like, you can adjust the Bi-Flex to whatever you find more comfortable.
Thanks for providing those suggestions!
I made them all and will test them out tonight.

I should note that when I set the "Flex type" to "None", a new setting popped up called "Rise time=0"" which I left at the default of "0"; also the "Bi-Flex=3" setting disappeared (which makes sense); and the "Ramp start=7.5" dropped to "7.0" as the highest number that it would take.

With that in mind, here's where I now have the Philips Respironics BiPap Auto Bi-Flex settings:
Setup:
- Mode = Auto
- Max IPAP = 20.0
- Min EPAP = 7.0
- Max PS = 3.0
- Flex Type = None
- Rise Time = 0 <---------- this appeared when I set flex type to none!
- Bi-Flex = 3 <---------- this disappeared when I set flex type to none!
- SYSTEM = X2
- LOCK SYS = off
- Ramp Time = 0:10
- Ramp Start = 7.0 <---------- this dropped from 7.5 to 7.0 when I set flex type to none!
- Auto on = on
- Auto off = on
- Mask alert = on
- Humidifier = off
- Show AHI = on
- Split night = off
(06-06-2016 11:01 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  As to the surge arresters, if you're hooked up to a car battery, and the car is running, you could get surges. I guess. All I know is that those arresters are there, and they're pretty big in size. I assume they are essentially choke coils.
Interesting.

If I were designing something to prevent surges, I'd use a capacitor and not a coil, only because a fast change in current through a capacitor "slows it down" (from high school physics, I remember c=dq/dt or, the change in current charge over the change in time).

But, anyway, I didn't think you use the machine with the car running!
What kind of camping is that? Smile

I mean to use the machine on a gel cell battery, in a tent (if that's possible due to the amp hour needs, which are something like 35 amp hours or so, AFAIK).
06-07-2016 06:39 AM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #7
RE: Setting up 12VDC BiPap Auto to be the same as 24VCD Resmed A10 for camping use?
We have a few EE's here (I am among them.)
The primary element in a surge arrestor (or suppressor) is an MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor). They look like Ceramic Capacitors.
The have a capacitance; plus, their resistance changes with Voltage -- becoming a Voltage clamp.

Those cylindrical devices we see on wires are chokes (series inductors). They are actually a ferrite cylinder through which the wire passes.
Their primary purpose is to suppress EMI.

35 AHr will do fine for 2 nights.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
(This post was last modified: 06-07-2016 10:30 AM by justMongo.)
06-07-2016 10:29 AM
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verbatim1 Offline

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Post: #8
RE: Setting up 12VDC BiPap Auto to be the same as 24VCD Resmed A10 for camping use?
(06-07-2016 10:29 AM)justMongo Wrote:  We have a few EE's here (I am among them.)
That's great. I'm not an EE, but I took physics, so, I know only enough to begin to be dangerous...

Although, I did buy little shiny dark black or bright orange two pin pancake 400VAC MOVs long ago from Radio Shack to hook across all my power strips, so I'm familiar with them.

(06-07-2016 10:29 AM)justMongo Wrote:  The primary element in a surge arrestor (or suppressor) is an MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor). They look like Ceramic Capacitors.
The have a capacitance; plus, their resistance changes with Voltage -- becoming a Voltage clamp.
If we're gonna worry about "surges", the question here will be where would those "surges" be coming from?

I can only think of two fundamental ways to hook up the cpap device when camping:
1. Hooked to a gel cell battery inside a tent
2. Hooked to a cigarette lighter or across a car battery inside a car

I guess there "might" be a complication that we might sleep while the car is running, but, that seems dangerous (carbon monoxide, for example), and wasteful, so, I "assume" the car isn't running.

Given that a battery is pretty well regulated, I don't see from where these surges we're worried about are coming from.

Do you?

(06-07-2016 10:29 AM)justMongo Wrote:  Those cylindrical devices we see on wires are chokes (series inductors). They are actually a ferrite cylinder through which the wire passes.
Their primary purpose is to suppress EMI.
Thanks for explaining the EMI (which is high frequency noise, right?).
I doubt EMI is our problem on a power supply, right?

I still don't see what surges we're supposed to be worried about; and without knowing what we're worried about, we can't devise a fix.

If the load were huge, I might worry about the initial hook up to the battery (a spark would indicate a decently high resistive load for example, I would think) - but after the initial hookup - where's the "surge" supposed to come from?
(06-07-2016 10:29 AM)justMongo Wrote:  35 AHr will do fine for 2 nights.

My friend's Philips Respironics has 5Amps at 12VDC printed on the side, which is probably the maximum current, so, a 35Amp-Hour battery should (under decent conditions) last 7 hours, and, if the average load is half the five amps, then it should last the two nights you suggest - so the math works out if we assume 2.5 amps as the average load over the 14 hour period.
06-07-2016 11:32 PM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #9
RE: Setting up 12VDC BiPap Auto to be the same as 24VCD Resmed A10 for camping use?
(06-07-2016 11:32 PM)verbatim1 Wrote:  
(06-07-2016 10:29 AM)justMongo Wrote:  Those cylindrical devices we see on wires are chokes (series inductors). They are actually a ferrite cylinder through which the wire passes.
Their primary purpose is to suppress EMI.
Thanks for explaining the EMI (which is high frequency noise, right?).
I doubt EMI is our problem on a power supply, right?
The 12v to 24v up-converter is a switcher. To meet radiated emissions standards they add those chokes.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
06-08-2016 06:16 AM
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verbatim1 Offline

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Machine: Remstar Auto
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Mask Make & Model: F&P Eson Nasak Mask SL-Large for CPAP or bi-level venti
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CPAP Pressure: 10 to 20
CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic

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Post: #10
RE: Setting up 12VDC BiPap Auto to be the same as 24VCD Resmed A10 for camping use?
(06-08-2016 06:16 AM)justMongo Wrote:  The 12v to 24v up-converter is a switcher. To meet radiated emissions standards they add those chokes.

Thanks Mongo for explaining WHERE the EMI was coming from.

It makes sense that the ResMed up converter has to chop the steady 12VDC DC into (noisy) square waves, just so that it can then transform the AC voltage from 12 to 25 VAC, and then rectify it back to DC.

Sheesh. All that "noise" introduced "by" the power supply then has to be filtered out!

This circuit (proposed by you and Steve and others) seems to be "cleaner"...
[Image: rCTwTz.gif]
06-08-2016 01:59 PM
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