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HELP reading Sleepyhead
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Sleepster Offline
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Post: #21
RE: HELP reading Sleepyhead
Rich, I think you are over-interpreting your data. You keep labeling short (a few hours) intervals of sleep "good" or "bad" and you seem to be reaching that conclusion based on your AHI.

Also, I don't understand why your settings are different from the doctor's. I thought you had agreed to leave them alone and not change them until your follow-up visit so that unlike last time you'd have some meaningful data for him to interpret and discuss with you.

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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
05-08-2013 07:59 AM
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racprops Offline

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Post: #22
RE: HELP reading Sleepyhead
I have written him off as a lost.

He said to come back after 60 days. He doesn’t care and does not want to know.

In a sleep study, they start with a setting and watch the same kind of reports I have for 20 minutes..and then make a change and wait 20 minutes and make a change..all night long.

Then from the reactions of a 20 minute reading based the settings to set the machine.

These readings are taken under duress, you’re not at home in your own bed, but someplace else, you brand new to the use of a CPAP Machine and your WIRED with a ton of sensors, and in my case also taking a sleeping pill they say will not affect the readings.

So based on their results: @ 10/15cm I SHOULD have NO OAs, 1 CAs, and 31 Ns and be running O2 @ 89%.

That was what he prescribed.

BUT in his own report, I was better at 9/15cm as I had: NO OA, NO CA, and my Ns were 19 with O2 at 89%..

He did not even follow his own report…

Worst is once I got my own machine I have not seen anything like their results, my readings have been over 30 AHIs almost every night.

WHY?? Why did I not get the same results within days of getting the machine?? Why did I not respond as I did in the lab, I should be responding so much better than I did in the lab, but I am so very much worst, during the study it was a matter of minor degrees of Apneas, they got me down to NO apneas…not the high numbers I am seeing…

Why am I not getting these results as I am now sleeping in my own home and giving myself every advantage and sleeping in my recliner and I am now very used to my machine…

The sleep study showed me cured. Well treated anyway.

So if the sleep study and the Doctor’s prescription is holly: I should have seen something like what they did, NOT the I can’t breathe with the machine and nightmare readings and reports I have been getting from day one. It should only be a matter of a little fine tuning.

So it comes down to only a few possibilities: Their machine is much better that the one I bought and I should have one like theirs.

OR the sleep study is a sham and only a beginning and their best GUESS to what settings I need.

The good thing about a sleep study is they can report IF you have sleep apneas, what kind and if there is something else going wrong, IE other conductions. (If they look for them..that is: Hammers only look for and see nails)

AND a sleep study can show that treatment on a PAP machine CAN help, but in my treatment it did not give me a working treatment, I am not responding as I did in the sleep study.

So they make life changing decisions with only one nights study and with only 20 minutes at each setting in an bed not my own, sleeping in the worst position, flat on my back and hooked up to all those wires with a sleeping pill and my readings over a full night’s sleep at home on one set of settings, in my recliner with no sleeping pill and no wires and I am more used to my machine and these reports are so much less reliable??

AND WORST: My results are nowhere like theirs, I have massive centrals and Hypopneas.

So yes I cannot believe my Doctor nor his test results as what happened in the sleep lab is NOT happening at home with my own PAP Machine.

As things stand I am very sick and he is not helping...

And you wonder why I am going nuts…

At this point all I can say is I BELIEVE I would be a lot worse off, sicker without the machine…so all I am doing is slowing down and keeping my finger in the dike.

And I hope to get better…

Rich
(This post was last modified: 05-08-2013 10:46 AM by racprops.)
05-08-2013 10:39 AM
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racprops Offline

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Machine: Respironics DS960HS
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CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic

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Sex: Male
Location: Phoenix AZ

Post: #23
RE: HELP reading Sleepyhead
More:

On cars I have found I could work up to a good MPG setting by doing it one step at a time…and it will work UNTIL I turned it off and restarted and which point it would totally NOT work with the setting I had just worked up to..

That in these cases working a running car to a setting will ONLY work if you’re willing to start over every time and work up to that setting…

I think the sleep study has a bit of that kind of results, good only in the lab and only if you willing to take ½ of the night getting to those settings/results and that will NOT work as it did in the lab once you’re at home.

I am starting to think the medical profession is working a little bit of a scam, these are real problems, BUT perhaps not as dangerous as they are making it and they are calming it causes more problems than it does and that their treatment will cure too many things!

How many of us read and were told our weight problems might be caused by apneas and the treatment might help cure that?? (Now it is: Well you will have more energy and can eat less and workout more..thank to better sleep...)

I have been lead to believe my heart surgery might have been caused by sleep apneas. (Could be a enzine I am lacking and causing eggs and meat to not be digressed as correctly)

One note about scams, they make a lot of noise and a lot of unproven clams and promises and charge a lot of money for the fix. (I know about scams...) So it is charge as much as possible and get out of town fast...

The sleep Doctors and sleep centers are over charging, I can see a Heart Doctor cheaper, in face all my Doctors are cheaper that my sleep Doctor.

And $1200.00 to $2500.00 for ONE night study…

I fear they are throwing wood on a small fire here…do not look behind the curtain.

Rich
05-08-2013 12:36 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Posts: 4,994
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Machine: ResMed AirCurve10 VAuto
Mask Type: Full face mask
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Humidifier: HumidAir and SlimLine Hose
CPAP Pressure: MaxI 13.6 | MinE 5.2 | PS 4.4
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Diagnosed Nov 2011. Conquered aerophagia.

Sex: Male
Location: Houston, Texas

Post: #24
RE: HELP reading Sleepyhead
You don't have a lot of choices here, Rich. You can find another doctor or go it on your own. Either way, you'll be working with a limited amount of data and trying to do the best you can with the limited knowledge, skill and data you do have available to you. You can either do that on your own or with the help of a professional.

The AHI measured by a CPAP machine is not the same as the AHI measured during a sleep study. Both measurements are done with access to flow rate and pressure data, but in the sleep study they know what stage of sleep you're in when that data is collected. And there's a technician at the controls adjusting the pressure instead of a CPAP machine that's following some algorithm it was taught.

The human body doesn't respond the way an automobile does. With a machine like an automobile engine you get more dependable behavior. If you expose it to the same set of conditions, it'll respond in the same way. With your body, that's not the case. It'll respond differently, sometimes very differently, under the same or similar conditions.

You just don't have the same level of predictability in the way it'll behave.

It is extremely common, likely the norm, that new users with simple OSA will experience a much higher AHI when first connected to a CPAP machine than when they were titrated in a sleep study. And the AHI drops in a few nights or weeks all by itself with no changes to the machine's settings.

Sleepster
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
05-08-2013 01:27 PM
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racprops Offline

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Machine: Respironics DS960HS
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CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic

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Sex: Male
Location: Phoenix AZ

Post: #25
RE: HELP reading Sleepyhead
OK Yes they can tell if I am in rem sleep which on the reports happen only a couple of times for short time each...

90% of the time I was in NREM Sleep...

I also had a lot of alerts, which I understand if almost waking or waking that you do not remember like turning over in bed.

And as I understand it the goal is to induce good rem sleep..and then the deeper sleep that follows and then rem sleep and so on, I believe that is considered a sleep cycle and avg. 1 1/2 to 2 hours each cycle. This what we should do three to four times a night.

Rem and deep sleep is the hardest to get to and I get more at home than I did in the sleep study.

Again they had everything against yet got fantastic results...

I find that hard to believe as my own results are so very poor.

What I expected is a few nights getting used to it BUT with AHIs of say around 10 to 20 and then a few nights once in while where I would match the sleep study with 0 AHIs.

Instead I get 30 to 50 AHIs with once in a while I see under 20s.

Rich
05-08-2013 02:08 PM
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racprops Offline

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Machine: Respironics DS960HS
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Respironics FitLife FFM
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CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Phoenix AZ

Post: #26
RE: HELP reading Sleepyhead
My words are not against anyone here.

I thank all you that have helped and tried to help.

I am questioning the Doctors whom have jumped on this line of health care, special the ones whom are raking it in with these high prices.

I am questioning about how a clinic opens near a trucking company and soon most of the truck drivers are being forced to take sleep studies and paying these high costs out of their own pockets or stop driving. (Giving a bulk rate is NOT offered…)

It is reported that this treatment, CPAP has a 50% drop out rate or failure.

I wonder why. Could it be many are treated that don’t really need treatment?


Could the Doctors be rushing everyone within reach into treatment?

When I was shopping around about a sleep study I would ask if they would be testing and considering a Dental Appliance as a possible treatment of OA.

They said no. I was told If I wanted to look into that line of treatment go see a Dentist.

Sadly the Dentist are also very costly with their $3500.00+ appliances…(there are some of these kind of appliances for sale as snoring aides for under $100.00, and for some work very well, for apneas too I believe…)

After being told how complex ALL the setting are with my machine, and all the other efforts by my Doctor to keep me from see how simple it is to set up this machine is suppose to be learning there are ONLY 5/6 settings ..I find that very misleading...near lieing.


So I am questioning all

Rich
05-08-2013 03:26 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Machine: ResMed AirCurve10 VAuto
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F&P Simplus
Humidifier: HumidAir and SlimLine Hose
CPAP Pressure: MaxI 13.6 | MinE 5.2 | PS 4.4
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Diagnosed Nov 2011. Conquered aerophagia.

Sex: Male
Location: Houston, Texas

Post: #27
RE: HELP reading Sleepyhead
(05-08-2013 02:08 PM)racprops Wrote:  Again they had everything against yet got fantastic results...

I find that hard to believe as my own results are so very poor.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Sleepster
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
05-08-2013 06:19 PM
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racprops Offline

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Posts: 260
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Machine: Respironics DS960HS
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Respironics FitLife FFM
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CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Phoenix AZ

Post: #28
RE: HELP reading Sleepyhead
How?

I was told they were using a machine that works just like the one I was going to buy and use at home..

So that should be apple to apple.

All the rest should have harmed their readouts, not made them better.

Not my bed, wired like a mad Doctors monster, and sleeping flat on my back.

My readings should have been very high.

I think I am so frustrated by how upside down all of this is.

I have to get the most advance machine: a complex breathing machine and I have to get used to it…It should be able to work with me right out of the box…

The sleep study done under the worst conductions gets fantastic results, and once I get a machine and use it at home I get horrorable results.

Upside down.

Rich
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2013 06:57 AM by racprops.)
05-09-2013 12:02 AM
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Post: #29
RE: HELP reading Sleepyhead
(05-08-2013 03:26 PM)racprops Wrote:  It is reported that this treatment, CPAP has a 50% drop out rate or failure.

I wonder why. Could it be many are treated that don’t really need treatment?


Could the Doctors be rushing everyone within reach into treatment?

When I was shopping around about a sleep study I would ask if they would be testing and considering a Dental Appliance as a possible treatment of OA.

They said no. I was told If I wanted to look into that line of treatment go see a Dentist.

Sadly the Dentist are also very costly with their $3500.00+ appliances…(there are some of these kind of appliances for sale as snoring aides for under $100.00, and for some work very well, for apneas too I believe…)
Rich

Howdy Rich,

The massive rise in obstructive sleep apnea diagnosis has a clear link to a rise in obesity. The unvarnished truth is that the fatter we get, the more likely we are to have OSA. Nobody wants to listen to that fact, but it's there, nonetheless. Yes, skinny people can develop OSA and anyone can develop CSA or complex sleep apnea. But the majority of OSA patients have developed OSA simply because they are overweight. Not everyone - but the majority of them. That's a fact that is hard to argue with.

Are the doctors "rushing everyone within reach into treatment"? I don't think so. I think that what they have on their hands is a an epidemic of overweight patients who have not complied with their doctor's request to lose the pounds. The result is a massive increase in OSA patients. I truly believe that for the majority of OSA patient who are overweight, losing that extra weight will do as much towards reducing their AHI as any kind of xCPAP, plus losing weight has other health benefits as well. But, as a society, we seldom choose the hard way as our first option. We want a machine to solve our problems for us, when in many cases, if we only fixed the machine of our own body (lose weight) - we'd be far better off. I realize no one wants to hear that.

As far as the drop-out rate for CPAP users, even though people want simple solutions, no one likes to sleep with an ugly, air-pushing contraption strapped to their head for the rest of their life. I sure don't. I'm surprised that the drop-out rate isn't higher, frankly.

On AHI, you have to ask yourself - is using your machine actually raising your AHI or lowering it (when compared to not using the machine at all)? If it's lowering it, it's a net gain for your health. The truth is that there are some patients who have treated AHI levels in the 10-20+ range using any form of xPAP, and they just can't get their AHI down to the <5.0 level, no matter what they do. But they continue using xPAP, because an treated AHI of 20 is still massively better than an untreated AHI of 80+.

Yeah, your pressure needs for the OSA may be triggering unwanted CSA events, but you have to look at the bigger picture - is the treatment lowering your AHI, yes or no? If yes, then no matter what, it's still a net gain for you to continue with the therapy, even though your AHI levels are not down to that "magic <5.0" level.

I also think there is something to the generally-talked-about advice of not changing your settings for a long period of time and then checking stats over a a week or two before making additional changes. Your body does react to all the changes, and needs time to acclimate to those changes. If you're constantly making adjustments and changes every few days, you are not getting an accurate read on what those changes are doing to the treatment.

I understand your frustration... chasing the AHI numbers down every day can sometimes be quite counter-productive. It's kind of like when you're sick with an infection, and the doctor gives you an antibiotic and tells you to take one capsule 3 times a day over the next two weeks, and after 2 days, you triple the dosage to 9 capsules per day to make the infection go away quicker. That would not be logical, since you need those antibiotics to be in your system for the entire 2 week period in order to kill all the remaining bacteria. Time is a factor in that scenario. I fear what you might be doing is not considering time to be a factor in your ASV treatment.

SuperSleeper
Apnea Board Administrator
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.

05-09-2013 10:14 AM
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Sleepster Offline
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Posts: 4,994
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Machine: ResMed AirCurve10 VAuto
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F&P Simplus
Humidifier: HumidAir and SlimLine Hose
CPAP Pressure: MaxI 13.6 | MinE 5.2 | PS 4.4
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Diagnosed Nov 2011. Conquered aerophagia.

Sex: Male
Location: Houston, Texas

Post: #30
RE: HELP reading Sleepyhead
(05-09-2013 12:02 AM)racprops Wrote:  How?

Rich, please realize that the advice we're giving you just might be right.

The answer to this question is in Post #27 of this thread where I said ...

Quote:The AHI measured by a CPAP machine is not the same as the AHI measured during a sleep study. Both measurements are done with access to flow rate and pressure data, but in the sleep study they know what stage of sleep you're in when that data is collected. And there's a technician at the controls adjusting the pressure instead of a CPAP machine that's following some algorithm it was taught.

You say somebody told you your machine was supposed to work just as well as the machine they used in your sleep study. Maybe you misunderstood. Maybe if you give yourself time to adapt to the therapy it will.

The only evidence you have that it's not working as expected is the AHI your machine measures. That data is not meaningful enough for you to reach the conclusion you're reaching. You need to collect the data over a longer period of time with the machine settings left unchanged.

At the very least realize that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong about at least some parts of this and the rest of the world has at least some parts of it right.

Sleepster
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www.ApneaBoard.com


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
05-09-2013 12:03 PM
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