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surferdude2 Offline

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Posts: 1,077
Joined: Jul 2014

Machine: ResMed S9 AutoSet
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Mirage Quattro & Optilife
Humidifier: ResMed H5i @ #3 if nose breathing & #5 if mouth breathing
CPAP Pressure: 12 ~ 20 & 11 ~12 if nasal mask
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Late stage 2 emphysema

Sex: Male
Location: Mousetown, Southern Illinois

Post: #11
RE: Hot
Smile Alas, the P coolers are quite large when you get up to the capacity required for a Delta T. of around 10° with a volume exceeding 50 L. per Min.

BTW, Your earlier mention of running a hose to your A/C vent is the best way to pre-cool the PAP intake air. I've done that and it works well. Tip: Use a larger hose than the XPAP hose. A 2" D. works fine. I used the one from my shop vac which was FUBAR. I normally get =< 68° air. With the coming of winter, this will need some more R & D applied.

Dude
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2015 07:46 PM by surferdude2.)
09-26-2015 07:31 PM
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Jim Bronson Online

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Posts: 264
Joined: Dec 2014

Machine: ResMed Airsense 10 Elite
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage FX
Humidifier: Built-in
CPAP Pressure: 9.2
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: California

Post: #12
RE: Hot
(09-26-2015 06:49 PM)justMongo Wrote:  There's a challenge. Integrate a Peltier effect cooler into an H5i.
\
Put it in a dorm reefer and cut holes for the power cable and hose. You'll also have a cold one within arms length == CPAP heaven.
09-26-2015 07:49 PM
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PoolQ Offline

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Posts: 986
Joined: Jul 2015

Machine: AirCurve 10 VAUTO
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Amara View
Humidifier: Integrated
CPAP Pressure: 6.2, 15, PS4.0
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Sillicon Valley

Post: #13
RE: Hot
ahh not exactly. The airsense and aircurve do indeed have a Peltier element in them and yes you can cool the air and you don't NEED that large of differential IF you run them at low power, which they do. They will not heat or cool fast or high volume, but they will cool some. I find its about enough to offset the heat the CPAP dumps into the airflow.
09-26-2015 08:03 PM
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surferdude2 Offline

Advisory Members

Posts: 1,077
Joined: Jul 2014

Machine: ResMed S9 AutoSet
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Mirage Quattro & Optilife
Humidifier: ResMed H5i @ #3 if nose breathing & #5 if mouth breathing
CPAP Pressure: 12 ~ 20 & 11 ~12 if nasal mask
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Late stage 2 emphysema

Sex: Male
Location: Mousetown, Southern Illinois

Post: #14
RE: Hot
Huh? You're shuckin' us, what?
09-26-2015 08:27 PM
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justMongo Offline

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Posts: 3,854
Joined: Sep 2013

Machine: ResMed VPAP Auto (S9)
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Quattro
Humidifier: ResMed H5i
CPAP Pressure: 18 IPAPmax - 11 EPAPmin, PS=5
CPAP Software: Other Software

Other Comments: μολὼν λαβέ

Sex: Male
Location: Калифорния

Post: #15
RE: Hot
(09-26-2015 08:27 PM)surferdude2 Wrote:  Huh? You're shuckin' us, what?

I find no reference to it.
A Peltier cooler generally requires a fan to get rid of heat.

(09-26-2015 07:31 PM)surferdude2 Wrote:  Smile Alas, the P coolers are quite large when you get up to the capacity required for a Delta T. of around 10° with a volume exceeding 50 L. per Min.

I have a micro fridge for insulin that uses a 45 Watt Peltier cooler. It can reach 32 degrees F below ambient. The Peltier junction, heat sink and fan are reasonable in size. Where I think it would fall short is: It only has to cool about 250 cubic inches of stationary air Volume. The thermal load of cooling a moving volume of air (my mask intentional leak rate is about 50 LPM at pressure) would certainly limit cooling below ambient to a small number.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2015 01:06 PM by justMongo.)
09-27-2015 11:19 AM
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PoolQ Offline

Advisory Members

Posts: 986
Joined: Jul 2015

Machine: AirCurve 10 VAUTO
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Amara View
Humidifier: Integrated
CPAP Pressure: 6.2, 15, PS4.0
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Sillicon Valley

Post: #16
RE: Hot
There is no way that the CPAP unit could ever cool or heat 50L/m. Like has been said there is no heat spreader on either side of the element.
Water itself has a huge heat capacity and that is where the heat goes, so no heat spreader required. It is a small volume of water and does not need to be warmed up by much or very fast.

Will the unit ever be able to take 80 degree room air and cool it any noticeable amount-not a chance.
most of us leave our CPAP plugged in when we don't use it. This consumes "some" power that is converted to heat which stays mostly in the CPAP machine and will warm the air in the humidifier chamber. The temperature element can compensate for this and will limit that first inrush of warmer than room temperature air we can feel when we first turn the unit on.

It can usually, but not always keep us from breathing air above room temperature. Think of standard use. Water in the tank (lots of mass) and our typical flow rate (not close to 50L/m, for me anyway) with the exhale time to recover. This is a comfort thing and not a "the food is going to spoil" thing (micro fridge), if it makes us feel better before we fall asleep, it's probably good, most people as far as I know that use humidity use heated water anyway.

When we use it to heat the water, then it has it easy. What happens to a Peltier element when you don't take away the cold from the cold side-it swamps out and both sides get hot. When heating water that is not a problem.

As for no reference, well they don't reference anything that they use-Microprocessor, memory, motor specs, processor speed, not a single thing. Humidity is "spec'd" as +1-5 or whatever, not relative humidity.

Do I think that it's a Peltier , yep I do. Have I taken it apart, nope. I could tape a thermocouple on the base plate, but haven't yet.

Oh and Peltier's are quite thin without heat spreaders and fans attached. A 60W one is 4mm thick (0.167") and there is no way they are pumping 60W into it.
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2015 02:39 PM by PoolQ.)
09-27-2015 02:37 PM
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PoolQ Offline

Advisory Members

Posts: 986
Joined: Jul 2015

Machine: AirCurve 10 VAUTO
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Amara View
Humidifier: Integrated
CPAP Pressure: 6.2, 15, PS4.0
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Sillicon Valley

Post: #17
RE: Hot
"including a Peltier element having a hot side and a cold side, the heat exchanger being inserted into the air stream of the fan, said heat exchanger cooling the air stream supplied by the fan to a temperature 2-4 degrees Celcius below ambient temperature before it is supplied to a nose mask"

US 6332462 B1
2013, Resmed R&D Germany
09-27-2015 03:53 PM
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PoolQ Offline

Advisory Members

Posts: 986
Joined: Jul 2015

Machine: AirCurve 10 VAUTO
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Amara View
Humidifier: Integrated
CPAP Pressure: 6.2, 15, PS4.0
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Sillicon Valley

Post: #18
RE: Hot
Typical power consumption: 53W (57VA)
Peak power consumption: 104W (108VA)

I would suggest that there is an airflow used to remove heat from inside that plastic case and over at least a small heat spreader for the thermal unit.
09-27-2015 04:11 PM
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PaytonA Offline
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Posts: 3,016
Joined: Dec 2013

Machine: ResMed S9 VPAP Auto
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Resmed Mirage Quattro
Humidifier: H5i(distilled-top up)
CPAP Pressure: VAuto MinE14.0 MaxI 20.6 PS4.0
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Orange County,California

Post: #19
RE: Hot
(09-27-2015 03:53 PM)PoolQ Wrote:  "including a Peltier element having a hot side and a cold side, the heat exchanger being inserted into the air stream of the fan, said heat exchanger cooling the air stream supplied by the fan to a temperature 2-4 degrees Celcius below ambient temperature before it is supplied to a nose mask"

US 6332462 B1
2013, Resmed R&D Germany

This does not make a lot of sense with regards to humidifiers without the context. Is this in the blower unit to remove the heat caused by compression of the air? Secondly is this equipment for some R&D project? Looks probable.

Best regards,

PaytonA
09-27-2015 07:28 PM
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PaytonA Offline
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Monitors

Posts: 3,016
Joined: Dec 2013

Machine: ResMed S9 VPAP Auto
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Resmed Mirage Quattro
Humidifier: H5i(distilled-top up)
CPAP Pressure: VAuto MinE14.0 MaxI 20.6 PS4.0
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Orange County,California

Post: #20
RE: Hot
For those who think that air comes out of the CPAP system at the same temp that it goes in, try this.

Hook up a Mirage Quattro or probably any mask with open vent holes (not the "quiet" versions) to a CPAP running at 20 cm/H2O.
Don the mask in a warm-hot room and start the CPAP up.
Put your hand in front of the vents and tell me that the exhaust air is not cooler than ambient and, by the way, this is at 54 liters per minute for a Quattro Mirage.

At least this is my experience.

Best Regards,

PaytonA
09-27-2015 07:38 PM
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