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Is there any way for me to monitor amount of time in N3 sleep?
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mrkdilkington Offline

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Machine: Philips System One 60 series
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CPAP Pressure: 7-12
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Post: #1
Is there any way for me to monitor amount of time in N3 sleep?
In my initial study in May I had 0 mins in stage N3 sleep which was disconcerting but understandable due to having undiagnosed (and misdiagnosed) OSA for probably 15 years. However in a titration study I did in early September, at which point I was compliant using APAP for 2+ months, I also had 0 mins in N3 sleep. I think this explains why I am still fatigued all throughout the day and have yawning fits in which I yawn a dozen times in a half hour at several points during the day. So I'm wondering, is there a way I can monitor my N3 sleep?

Some sleepyhead stats: imgur.com/a/sMTGT
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2015 10:17 PM by mrkdilkington.)
10-13-2015 10:11 PM
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mrkdilkington Offline

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Posts: 25
Joined: Oct 2015

Machine: Philips System One 60 series
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F & P Simplus
Humidifier: System One
CPAP Pressure: 7-12
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

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Sex: Male
Location:

Post: #2
RE: Is there any way for me to monitor amount of time in N3 sleep?
Not seeing how to edit my message now, but my pressure pre-titration was 6-12cm (determined by Kaiser), and the titration study in September was found to be 7cm. However during the titration study they started me at 5cm and increased it slowly & I slept very poorly (66% sleep efficiency with constant awakenings, 15 mins total in REM). By the time they got me up to 7cm the study was pretty much over. Since using 7-12cm in September, I've slowly increased it up to to 9-12cm now and am sleeping better than before, but as I said earlier nowhere near rested.
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2015 10:35 PM by mrkdilkington.)
10-13-2015 10:33 PM
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AshSF Online

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Posts: 356
Joined: Oct 2014

Machine: PRS1 D560TS
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed P10, Bkup: Airfit F10 & Quattro Air
Humidifier: PRS1 60 series with Heated Tube
CPAP Pressure: 8 - 8 w/ Aflex 3
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Using APAP mode with fixed pressure

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Post: #3
RE: Is there any way for me to monitor amount of time in N3 sleep?
2 months is still early days for PAP therapy. Are your leaks under control? AHI? RERA index?

If your leaks are under control and AHI is under control and RERA is under control then O2 levels are not causing you to miss going into deep sleep.

If you are not Going to Deep sleep (N3/REM), then one potential cause is microarousals caused by pressure variations of the Auto PAP machine. These microarousals knock you out of a deeper sleep state to a shallower one, consequently not letting you get to N3/REM.

You may want to try straight pressure to rule this out. A good straight pressure to set is the 90% pressure reading of your machine for the last 30 days.

Started APAP 4-20, Closed range to 7.5-14, then straight 8.0 w/ Aflex 3
RDI always below 1. But sleep much much better at straight pressure.
Started on F10, Tried Quattro Air successfully. Finally settled on P10.
10-13-2015 10:37 PM
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mrkdilkington Offline

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Posts: 25
Joined: Oct 2015

Machine: Philips System One 60 series
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F & P Simplus
Humidifier: System One
CPAP Pressure: 7-12
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location:

Post: #4
RE: Is there any way for me to monitor amount of time in N3 sleep?
(10-13-2015 10:37 PM)AshSF Wrote:  2 months is still early days for PAP therapy. Are your leaks under control? AHI? RERA index?

If your leaks are under control and AHI is under control and RERA is under control then O2 levels are not causing you to miss going into deep sleep.

If you are not Going to Deep sleep (N3/REM), then one potential cause is microarousals caused by pressure variations of the Auto PAP machine. These microarousals knock you out of a deeper sleep state to a shallower one, consequently not letting you get to N3/REM.

You may want to try straight pressure to rule this out. A good straight pressure to set is the 90% pressure reading of your machine for the last 30 days.

My AHI over the past 3 months (started cpap late June): imgur.com/a/sMTGT (can't post links so just copy/paste)

My leak rate seems to be okay: imgur.com/zT1wuxx

Looking over individual nights there's always 10-20+ pressure spikes like in the image above so that could definitely explain any microarousals. I'll give straight CPAP a go.. thanks!
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2015 10:53 PM by mrkdilkington.)
10-13-2015 10:43 PM
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mrkdilkington Offline

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Posts: 25
Joined: Oct 2015

Machine: Philips System One 60 series
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F & P Simplus
Humidifier: System One
CPAP Pressure: 7-12
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location:

Post: #5
RE: Is there any way for me to monitor amount of time in N3 sleep?
Question.. is there any difference on a System One between straight CPAP @ 9cm vs. Auto @ 9-9cm? E.g. are there certain advantageous non-pressure-increasing related functions performed in auto mode but not in straight cpap, like pressure pulses?
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2015 10:50 PM by mrkdilkington.)
10-13-2015 10:50 PM
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DariaVader Offline
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Machine: Resmed S9 AutoSet
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: Airfit P10 for Her
Humidifier: H5i humidifier with ClimateLine heated hose
CPAP Pressure: 8-15
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: diabetes II, Thyroidectomized, Primary Immune Deficiency, and the list goes on :P

Sex: Female
Location: Oregon

Post: #6
RE: Is there any way for me to monitor amount of time in N3 sleep?
There may be other issues with your sleep, but it may also get better with patience and time. It took me 6 mo to begin to see an increase in REM and probably also deep sleep cycles, since I'd had apnea for so long and had developed sleeping patterns around the arousals of apnea. At just short of 1 yr, I am hoping to see continued improvements.

هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه
Tongue Suck Technique for prevention of mouth breathing:
  • Place your tongue behind your front teeth on the roof of your mouth
  • let your tongue fill the space between the upper molars
  • gently suck to form a light vacuum
Practising during the day can help you to keep it at night

هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه
10-13-2015 11:02 PM
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mrkdilkington Offline

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Posts: 25
Joined: Oct 2015

Machine: Philips System One 60 series
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F & P Simplus
Humidifier: System One
CPAP Pressure: 7-12
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

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Sex: Male
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Post: #7
RE: Is there any way for me to monitor amount of time in N3 sleep?
(10-13-2015 11:02 PM)DariaVader Wrote:  There may be other issues with your sleep, but it may also get better with patience and time. It took me 6 mo to begin to see an increase in REM and probably also deep sleep cycles, since I'd had apnea for so long and had developed sleeping patterns around the arousals of apnea. At just short of 1 yr, I am hoping to see continued improvements.

That definitely could be the case with me too; I am 29 now and dozed off all the time in high school & college classes so I'm looking at 15 years of bad sleep to undo..
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2015 11:09 PM by mrkdilkington.)
10-13-2015 11:08 PM
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DariaVader Offline
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Monitors

Posts: 1,827
Joined: Nov 2014

Machine: Resmed S9 AutoSet
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: Airfit P10 for Her
Humidifier: H5i humidifier with ClimateLine heated hose
CPAP Pressure: 8-15
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: diabetes II, Thyroidectomized, Primary Immune Deficiency, and the list goes on :P

Sex: Female
Location: Oregon

Post: #8
RE: Is there any way for me to monitor amount of time in N3 sleep?
so then, like me - you had apnea during childhood yrs, probably. good on you for finding it before 30. I am in my late 50s Smile

هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه
Tongue Suck Technique for prevention of mouth breathing:
  • Place your tongue behind your front teeth on the roof of your mouth
  • let your tongue fill the space between the upper molars
  • gently suck to form a light vacuum
Practising during the day can help you to keep it at night

هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه هههههه
10-13-2015 11:23 PM
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AshSF Online

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Posts: 356
Joined: Oct 2014

Machine: PRS1 D560TS
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed P10, Bkup: Airfit F10 & Quattro Air
Humidifier: PRS1 60 series with Heated Tube
CPAP Pressure: 8 - 8 w/ Aflex 3
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Using APAP mode with fixed pressure

Sex: Male
Location:

Post: #9
RE: Is there any way for me to monitor amount of time in N3 sleep?
(10-13-2015 10:50 PM)mrkdilkington Wrote:  Question.. is there any difference on a System One between straight CPAP @ 9cm vs. Auto @ 9-9cm? E.g. are there certain advantageous non-pressure-increasing related functions performed in auto mode but not in straight cpap, like pressure pulses?

Your leak rate, AHi is excellent. Looking at your pressure chart you should Stay in auto @9-9. System one flags flow limitations only in APAP mode. So it's useful to stay in APAP mode with min = max, just to collect more useful data.

Pressure pulses are used in all modes, purely to differentiate between a clear airway event and an obstructive event. They are typically less than a second in duration and don't show up on pressure curve. What you are seeing on your pressure chart is the hunt n peck algorithm of the system one which raises the pressure by 1.5cm over a longer duration and then ramps it back down if it doesn't detect any qualitative improvement in its analysis of the breathing waveform.

Started APAP 4-20, Closed range to 7.5-14, then straight 8.0 w/ Aflex 3
RDI always below 1. But sleep much much better at straight pressure.
Started on F10, Tried Quattro Air successfully. Finally settled on P10.
(This post was last modified: 10-14-2015 12:05 AM by AshSF.)
10-13-2015 11:54 PM
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SleepyDude Offline

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Post: #10
RE: Is there any way for me to monitor amount of time in N3 sleep?
Definitely give it some time. I'm at 6 months now and have recently started consistently getting good deep rem sleep. Ha-ha I always told people I never remembered dreaming -- turns out I just never was dreaming at all. I dream now.
10-14-2015 10:16 PM
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