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Is this true
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me50 Offline

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Posts: 2,559
Joined: Aug 2013

Machine: resmed S9 VPAP Auto
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: Wisp and Silicone Head gear
Humidifier: resmed H5i
CPAP Pressure: 18/8
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Undisclosed
Location: USA

Post: #11
RE: Is this true
[/quote]

I am not sure what the ResMed clinician's manual might have said but my DME did not even leave the data card with the machine.Huhsign

PaytonA
[/quote]

that is crazy they didn't leave the SD card. how are they supposed to document compliance if they didn't give you an SD card? Did you ask them for one or where yours is? They are inserted in the machine for every machine I have ever had.
01-21-2014 06:16 PM
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trish6hundred Offline

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Posts: 6,446
Joined: May 2012

Machine: Resmed S9 AutoSet for Her
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Fisher & Paykel Simplus
Humidifier: H5i Heated Humidifier
CPAP Pressure: 10 - 7-20 Cm H2O
CPAP Software: Not using software

Other Comments: I started CPAP in 2008. Totally blind since birth.

Sex: Female
Location: Missouri, USA

Post: #12
RE: Is this true
(01-21-2014 06:08 PM)PaytonA Wrote:  
(01-21-2014 01:27 PM)zonk Wrote:  
(01-21-2014 12:37 PM)me50 Wrote:  Did you get any books with your machine? I did.
I did too but my book have no instructions on how to change the time on the clock* so you need to take the machine back to your provider to have it done. Sleep deprived lots cannot be trusted or have the mental capacity to perform such fiddly task
Yep, us sleep deprived lots are very untrustworthy. Laugh-a-lot
Legal or not , cannot tell you but from the language in which the clinical manual is written, it addresses the provider (not the patient) and telling them what to tell or advise the patient. PRS1 manual start with this this instruction: IMPORTANT! Remove this guide before giving the device to the patient

[/quote]

I am not sure what the ResMed clinician's manual might have said but my DME did not even leave the data card with the machine.Huhsign

PaytonA
[/quote]
Boy you can do a lot of harmful stuff with a SD card, (Ha-Ha-Ha,) why they wouldn't want you to understand your data, would they? (Ha-Ha.)

trish6hundred
01-21-2014 06:27 PM
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robysue Offline
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Advisory Members

Posts: 1,233
Joined: Oct 2013

Machine: PR Dreamstation BiPAP Auto
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: Swift FX
Humidifier: PR Dreamstation humidfier
CPAP Pressure: min EPAP = 4; max IPAP = 9;
CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic EncorePro

Other Comments: Papping since September 2010

Sex: Female
Location: Buffalo, NY

Post: #13
RE: Is this true
There are TWO "user guides" in an unopened box containing a brand new S9: The patient's user guide and the clinical user guide.

The patient's user guide is SUPPOSED to be given to the patient. It contains basic information on how to use the machine, how to clean the machine, and patient-level instructions for troubleshooting. It does NOT contain instructions for setting the clock, however, since the clock is set through the clinical menu, which (in theory) DMEs believe they need to protect the patient from discovering for fear the patient will tamper with the clinical settings---i.e. the pressure setting---and manage to do some kind of damage to themselves. Because there are all kinds of "cover your tail" warnings in the patient guide addressed to the patient about what NOT to do when they're using the PAP in their own bed, it would surprise me if a DME took the patient guide away from the user. Then again, I've heard so many horrifying tales about DME behavior, maybe I shouldn't be surprised after all.

DMEs are ALLOWED and ENCOURAGED to remove the clinical user guide before giving the machine over to the patient. The main difference between the patient and the clinical guide is that the clinical guide tells you how to get into the clinical menu. (Quite frankly, it's not that hard and someone who was reasonably inquisitive would probably figure it out by just pushing random combinations of buttons) And of course, the clinical guide gives you the specific information about what each setting is for. One nasty thing is that the clinical guide also provides instructions on how to lock the patient out of certain critical parts of the so-called "comfort" settings as well as how to lock the patient out from being able to see the efficacy data. A truly nasty DME can lock down the EPR setting and the humidifer setting so that the patient can't change them, as well as set the Sleep Quality to "Usage", which prevents any useful data from being available to the user of the machine.

It's perfectly LEGAL for the DME to not give the patient a copy of the clinical guide. But it's probably NOT illegal for the DME to give that guide to the patient if they want to. However, the average DME is not going to be willing to part with the clinical guide out of fear that the patient will learn how to change their pressure setting and then sue the DME if something goes wrong.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2014 06:15 PM by robysue.)
01-23-2014 06:10 PM
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archangle Offline
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Advisory Members

Posts: 3,159
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: ResMed S9 AutoSet
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Swift FX
Humidifier: ResMed S9 H5i
CPAP Pressure: 16-20
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead EncoreBasic

Other Comments: Happy PAPper

Sex: Undisclosed
Location: USA

Post: #14
RE: Is this true
The medical mafia wants to protect their profit margins, so the DME's and doctors want to keep the patients ignorant and powerless to generate more office visits. The manufacturers consider the DME to be the customer, so they go along with this.

It's illegal to dispense a CPAP without a prescription.

It's probably illegal to change the setup on someone else's CPAP if you're not licensed by the state. Even the licensed medical technicians have to set it to the prescribed settings.

The DME might get in trouble with their management, the manufacturer, or the doctors if they gave out the manual.

It's probably not illegal to give you the manual or change the settings yourself, but that depends on state law. The medical mafia does pay bribes (campaign contributions) to the legislators to write laws favorable to them, so it's possible that's true in your state.

The DME's also have legitimate concerns that if they give out the manual, they might get sued if something goes wrong.

There's also the valid concern that patients shouldn't fiddle with the settings if they don't know what they're doing. Some would say patients should never change their own settings.

If the secret provider manual came with the CPAP there are a lot of dumb patients who would tinker with their settings and screw up their therapy. There are a lot of patients would turn their pressure down because it feels more comfortable and they don't know enough to realize they've lowered it too low to stop their apneas.

You shouldn't tinker with your settings willy-nilly. Apnea kills and if you change the settings on your CPAP, you may make your therapy ineffective and your apnea could kill you.

I do support ALL the manuals being available to everyone. However, you should realize that there are risks to changing the settings.

If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go check for yourself. Many of them don't even know when they're lying.

Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
01-27-2014 02:19 AM
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me50 Offline

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Posts: 2,559
Joined: Aug 2013

Machine: resmed S9 VPAP Auto
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: Wisp and Silicone Head gear
Humidifier: resmed H5i
CPAP Pressure: 18/8
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Undisclosed
Location: USA

Post: #15
RE: Is this true
The OP was talking about the user guide that comes with the machine and is supposed to be for the machine owner. And another poster said that their machine did not come with the SD card. hmmm
01-27-2014 02:44 AM
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Sevensox Offline

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Posts: 55
Joined: Apr 2013

Machine: REMstar Auto A-Flex
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Ultra Mirage Full Face Mask LG STD 60604
Humidifier: System One Heated Humidifier
CPAP Pressure: 16.7
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Missouri

Post: #16
RE: Is this true
If it is the law, then you need to look into what needs to be done to change it. Its your health and your paying for it. Either through insurance or directly. That puts you in charge. Not your doctor or a sales person.
01-27-2014 11:22 AM
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GreyParrot Offline

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Posts: 53
Joined: Dec 2013

Machine: ResMed S9 Elite
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Mirage Quattro
Humidifier: H5i-Unused
CPAP Pressure: 12.5
CPAP Software: ResScan

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location:

Post: #17
RE: Is this true
I felt kind of guilty circumventing the normal legal process self treating
but the more I read about the attitude of the medical community I'm
actually kind of proud of my decision to take my care into my own hands.
I just despise the concept of "forbidden knowledge" when it's used just
to protect turf.
01-27-2014 04:40 PM
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Blaifarm Offline

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Posts: 28
Joined: Oct 2013

Machine: ResMed S9 AutoSet
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: Philips Respironicss Wisp Nasal Mask
Humidifier: ResMed H5i
CPAP Pressure: 5 - 15
CPAP Software: ResScan

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Texas

Post: #18
RE: Is this true
(01-23-2014 06:10 PM)robysue Wrote:  There are TWO "user guides" in an unopened box containing a brand new S9: The patient's user guide and the clinical user guide.

The patient's user guide is SUPPOSED to be given to the patient. It contains basic information on how to use the machine, how to clean the machine, and patient-level instructions for troubleshooting. It does NOT contain instructions for setting the clock, however, since the clock is set through the clinical menu, which (in theory) DMEs believe they need to protect the patient from discovering for fear the patient will tamper with the clinical settings---i.e. the pressure setting---and manage to do some kind of damage to themselves. Because there are all kinds of "cover your tail" warnings in the patient guide addressed to the patient about what NOT to do when they're using the PAP in their own bed, it would surprise me if a DME took the patient guide away from the user. Then again, I've heard so many horrifying tales about DME behavior, maybe I shouldn't be surprised after all.

DMEs are ALLOWED and ENCOURAGED to remove the clinical user guide before giving the machine over to the patient. The main difference between the patient and the clinical guide is that the clinical guide tells you how to get into the clinical menu. (Quite frankly, it's not that hard and someone who was reasonably inquisitive would probably figure it out by just pushing random combinations of buttons) And of course, the clinical guide gives you the specific information about what each setting is for. One nasty thing is that the clinical guide also provides instructions on how to lock the patient out of certain critical parts of the so-called "comfort" settings as well as how to lock the patient out from being able to see the efficacy data. A truly nasty DME can lock down the EPR setting and the humidifer setting so that the patient can't change them, as well as set the Sleep Quality to "Usage", which prevents any useful data from being available to the user of the machine.

It's perfectly LEGAL for the DME to not give the patient a copy of the clinical guide. But it's probably NOT illegal for the DME to give that guide to the patient if they want to. However, the average DME is not going to be willing to part with the clinical guide out of fear that the patient will learn how to change their pressure setting and then sue the DME if something goes wrong.

Are you saying the DME can shut me out completely, or that the same instructions I can get "somewhere" can be used to unlock the machine if the DME finds I may have changed a setting or two.
01-28-2014 01:31 AM
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me50 Offline

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Posts: 2,559
Joined: Aug 2013

Machine: resmed S9 VPAP Auto
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: Wisp and Silicone Head gear
Humidifier: resmed H5i
CPAP Pressure: 18/8
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Undisclosed
Location: USA

Post: #19
RE: Is this true
DME may try to shut a patient out completely but if the patient is actively participating in their treatment, it won't happen for very long.

My DME knows that I know how to get into the clinical menu so they didn't lock me out of anything b/c they knew it wouldn't do any good. I also promised not to change my pressure settings during the first 30 days so they can see how things are working. I did agree to this b/c I don't know this machine at all and I don't make changes when I don't understand how the machine works, etc. I had no issues changing pressures, etc. on my auto set but I am not comfortable with doing that with the machine I have now.

I need to find the time to go searching for info on my machine so I can learn about it.
01-28-2014 02:07 AM
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JimZZZ Offline

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Posts: 370
Joined: Dec 2013

Machine: ResMed S9 AutoSet
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Fisher & Paykel Simplus
Humidifier: ResMed H5i (not using)
CPAP Pressure: 9 - 14
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: CareFusion PureSom Ultra Chinstrap

Sex: Male
Location: Western North Carolina

Post: #20
RE: Is this true
If I hadn't taken charge of my machine with knowledge gained from this forum, the doctor and the DME would have left me with an inappropriately configured machine for at least 90 days. My ResMed AutoSet was provided with autoset disabled and a presssure of 4. The doctor refused to change that until he got 90 days of history. After some experimentation, I have changed it to autoset enabled and a pressure of 8 to 16. The pressure averages around 11 and my average AHI is about 1.5. In my opinion, we have to look out for ourselves.
01-28-2014 07:25 AM
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