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Leaks and liners
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u2canbuild Offline

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Posts: 47
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Machine: ResMed Air-Curve 10 ASV
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: Sept 1 Nasal Pillows Swift FX
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CPAP Pressure: 3-8
CPAP Software: SleepyHead Other Software

Other Comments: 4 months AHI = 0.2 !! Adding 1.5 to 2 Liter O2

Sex: Male
Location: Central Massachusetts, USA

Post: #31
RE: Leaks and liners
I have tried about 6 different masks and have had trouble getting one to seal really well.............. I guess my face is just Miss-shaped.Dielaughing

So I took my best fitting (full faced) Res-Med Quatro without the liner and held in place to my face. I looked in the mirror and noticed that there was a gap on each side of my nose and a gap on each side just above my chin.

I decided to re-shape my mask......... I know the silicone liner is very pliable.

I simply put my mask without all the attachments in boiling water on the stove , removed the mask after a few minutes with tongs.

And quickly, with leather gloves I squeezed the mask pinching it in the nose section; While still pinching it, I quickly plunged it into a large pan of cool water in the sink.

I managed to change the shape a bit, and it took 3 tries to get it shaped such that there was no gap larger than 1/8".

(The boiling water worked; however it just barely softens the plastic mask).

Last night I tried my new shaped mask out ( had my second mask ready in case it did not work) and found that it sealed very well Cool and with lots less strap pressure. Cool

I also try to shave before going to bed .......... I found stubble creates very minor leaks that , for me is annoying.

Anyhow, wanted to pass along my sucess!

Just remember, I am simply relaying my "experiment" and do not assume any libality for your "experiments" if you choose to try to duplicate my unorthodox methods.

Eric
03-10-2013 09:02 PM
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JJJ Offline

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Posts: 751
Joined: Apr 2012

Machine: ResMed S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Nasal mask
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CPAP Software: SleepyHead

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Sex: Male
Location: USA 97217

Post: #32
RE: Leaks and liners
(03-10-2013 09:02 PM)u2canbuild Wrote:  I decided to re-shape my mask. I know the silicone liner is very pliable.
I simply put my mask without all the attachments in boiling water on the stove , removed the mask after a few minutes with tongs.
I also try to shave before going to bed. I found stubble creates very minor leaks that , for me is annoying.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I can't raise much beard, and what little I have is very soft. (Northern European genetics, which is odd, considering that because of the cold up there my ancestors should have evolved fur like a gorilla.)

The odd thing is that, of the five nasal masks I have tried, I never feel air escaping when I go to sleep. Looking in the mirror the fit seems fine. But during sleep I roll around a lot and the mask becomes dislodged. So far I've tried everything short of superglue without success. I wonder if I can have a mask surgically implanted on my face.

For my next exercise I am going to get a chin strap. I'm not a mouth breather, but I want to see if a chin strap will keep the mask in place. Others here have given me some suggestions. Tomorrow I will call my DME to see if they have any in stock. I will either buy one from them or order it from one of the suppliers.
03-11-2013 12:43 AM
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zonk Offline

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Posts: 7,908
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Machine: A10 AutoSet
Mask Type: Nasal mask
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Humidifier: Integrated /ClimateLineAir
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CPAP Software: ResScan

Other Comments: CPAP since Nov 2010

Sex: Male
Location: Australia

Post: #33
RE: Leaks and liners
(03-11-2013 12:43 AM)JJJ Wrote:  For my next exercise I am going to get a chin strap. I'm not a mouth breather, but I want to see if a chin strap will keep the mask in place.
Yes chinstrap does help keep mask in place providing you wear it over your mask
You might be not mouth breathing but chinstrap also help to minimize mouth leak by keeping mouth closed
your unintentional leak is made up of mask leak plus mouth leak
03-11-2013 01:03 AM
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JJJ Offline

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Machine: ResMed S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Nasal mask
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CPAP Pressure: 17-20
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

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Sex: Male
Location: USA 97217

Post: #34
RE: Leaks and liners
(03-11-2013 01:03 AM)zonk Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 12:43 AM)JJJ Wrote:  For my next exercise I am going to get a chin strap. I'm not a mouth breather, but I want to see if a chin strap will keep the mask in place.
Yes chinstrap does help keep mask in place providing you wear it over your mask
You might be not mouth breathing but chinstrap also help to minimize mouth leak by keeping mouth closed your unintentional leak is made up of mask leak plus mouth leak

If my mouth is always closed when I am asleep (confirmed by sleep study video and bed partners), how can there be mouth leaks when I am asleep? I never breathe through my mouth except when running, and even then I breathe through my nose unless it is a speed competition where I need the maximum oxygen possible. Mouths are for eating and kissing. Smile

When I look at my data in SleepyHead for the previous night the leaks for the first 15-20 minutes are always negligible. Then suddenly they go up and stay up the rest of the night. At 15-20 minutes is the first time I roll over from one side to the other, of course. Perhaps instead of a chin strap I should use bed restraints. Smile
03-11-2013 02:01 AM
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JJJ Offline

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Machine: ResMed S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: Most recent: Wisp, Pilairo, Mirage Vista
Humidifier: ResMed S9 Autoset
CPAP Pressure: 17-20
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

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Sex: Male
Location: USA 97217

Post: #35
RE: Leaks and liners
Today I got a call from RemZzz asking for how their liners worked with the Wisp. To refresh the discussion, they had sent me some samples of various sizes to try out, since the Wisp is new on the market.

I explained that I had given up because they did nothing for my leaks and they were very difficult to apply. The instructions say to hold the cushion in front of you nose side up and place the liner on the cushion, then bend your head down to put the mask on. This is impossible because the RemZzz liners are not sticky, so the minute I bend my head down I can't help but move my had a bit, and the liner just floats off and lands on the floor.

The RemZzz rep (Diane) said to use some lotion on my face and to apply some water based medical jelly to the liner to make it stick to the cushion. She suggested KY brand, although there are others that are just as good. And she also suggested doubling up on the liners. So tonight I will try again with these new suggestions.
03-13-2013 12:31 PM
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Shastzi Offline

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Machine: ResMed S9 Autoset
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Post: #36
RE: Leaks and liners
KY hm? What no AstroGlide? Big Grin

"With ordinary talent and extraordinary perseverance, all things are attainable." - Thomas Foxwell Buxton

Cool
03-14-2013 10:22 AM
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JJJ Offline

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Posts: 751
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Machine: ResMed S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: Most recent: Wisp, Pilairo, Mirage Vista
Humidifier: ResMed S9 Autoset
CPAP Pressure: 17-20
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

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Sex: Male
Location: USA 97217

Post: #37
RE: Leaks and liners
(03-13-2013 12:31 PM)JJJ Wrote:  Today I got a call from RemZzz asking for how their liners worked with the Wisp.
I explained that I had given up because they did nothing for my leaks and they were very difficult to apply. The instructions say to hold the cushion in front of you nose side up and place the liner on the cushion, then bend your head down to put the mask on. This is impossible because the RemZzz liners are not sticky, so the minute I bend my head down I can't help but move my had a bit, and the liner just floats off and lands on the floor.
The RemZzz rep (Diane) said to use some lotion on my face and to apply some water based medical jelly to the liner to make it stick to the cushion. She suggested KY brand, although there are others that are just as good. And she also suggested doubling up on the liners. So tonight I will try again with these new suggestions.

Good news!

For last night my 95% leak rate was 16.80 L and my max was 27.60 L. That is the lowest I have ever seen for any of the nine masks I have tried over the past year. To accomplish that I followed the suggestions of the RemZzz representative: First apply face lotion (oily) to my face, then apply KY to one side of two liners and stack them on the cushion, KY side to the cushion, before putting the mask on. And finally, I used my new chin strap to help hold the mask in place during the night.

My sleep was also much better. I woke up only three times during the night (usually twice that often), and I slept a total of eight hours. And when I woke up for the last time this morning I was ready to jump out of bed and get dressed, instead of my usual habit of lying in bed for another half hour or so. I definitely notice more energy today than usual.
03-14-2013 11:00 AM
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cbramsey Offline

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Post: #38
RE: Leaks and liners
Glad it worked JJJ!!! Congrats

Hopefully, you will keep seeing improved sleep quality. Sleep-well

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
03-14-2013 05:31 PM
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JJJ Offline

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Posts: 751
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Machine: ResMed S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: Most recent: Wisp, Pilairo, Mirage Vista
Humidifier: ResMed S9 Autoset
CPAP Pressure: 17-20
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

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Sex: Male
Location: USA 97217

Post: #39
RE: Leaks and liners
The second night using doubled RemZzz liners with medical jelly and my Wisp mask was terrible. I kept waking up unable to breathe. Each time I discovered that the liner had slid up and the bottom part was covering my nostrils.

Clearly this will not do, so last night I tried the Quietus liners. Quietus has made a liner specifically for the Wisp and it fits the mask a lot better. When I used the Quietus liner before the leak rate was still way too high. But last night I used the same technique as I have been trying with the RemZzz liners - double them up with medical jelly.

The results were amazing. I went to bed at 11:30 and woke for the first time at 4:15. That is a record for me, as I normally wake up five or six times during the night. Better yet, my 95% leak rate was 18.00 L and my maximum was 19.20 L, with a median of 12.00 L. I have been using CPAP for almost a year now, and that is the lowest leak rate I have ever had.

More interestingly, my pressure last night hit the 18 cm. max that the machine is set to and my 95% pressure was also 18.00, with a median of 14.82. The AHI was still OK with only two obstructive apneas and two hypopneas, but it's looking like I need to raise the pressures yet again. I have had only two nights now with acceptable leak rates (the first night with the doubled RemZzz liners and last night), and each time the pressure hit much higher levels than before. Maybe getting the leaks under control allows the machine to do its job better.

My only complaint is that putting the liners on the cushion, then putting the mask on, then putting the chin strap on is real production. Previously I just got undressed, crawled into bed, slid the mask on and hit the button on the machine. Now it takes several minutes to get into bed. But it's worth it. Smile
03-16-2013 11:34 AM
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SPOUSE Offline

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Post: #40
RE: Leaks and liners
JJJ, I am so glad you now seem to be on the right track with your leaks. Your persistence is amazing and you are a good example to everyone to keep on keeping on!

Sleep well and I hope you won't need those bed restraints!



(03-16-2013 11:34 AM)JJJ Wrote:  The second night using doubled RemZzz liners with medical jelly and my Wisp mask was terrible. I kept waking up unable to breathe. Each time I discovered that the liner had slid up and the bottom part was covering my nostrils.

Clearly this will not do, so last night I tried the Quietus liners. Quietus has made a liner specifically for the Wisp and it fits the mask a lot better. When I used the Quietus liner before the leak rate was still way too high. But last night I used the same technique as I have been trying with the RemZzz liners - double them up with medical jelly.

The results were amazing. I went to bed at 11:30 and woke for the first time at 4:15. That is a record for me, as I normally wake up five or six times during the night. Better yet, my 95% leak rate was 18.00 L and my maximum was 19.20 L, with a median of 12.00 L. I have been using CPAP for almost a year now, and that is the lowest leak rate I have ever had.

More interestingly, my pressure last night hit the 18 cm. max that the machine is set to and my 95% pressure was also 18.00, with a median of 14.82. The AHI was still OK with only two obstructive apneas and two hypopneas, but it's looking like I need to raise the pressures yet again. I have had only two nights now with acceptable leak rates (the first night with the doubled RemZzz liners and last night), and each time the pressure hit much higher levels than before. Maybe getting the leaks under control allows the machine to do its job better.

My only complaint is that putting the liners on the cushion, then putting the mask on, then putting the chin strap on is real production. Previously I just got undressed, crawled into bed, slid the mask on and hit the button on the machine. Now it takes several minutes to get into bed. But it's worth it. Smile
03-16-2013 05:07 PM
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