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Lip leaks
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PaulaO2 Offline
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Posts: 8,068
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Machine: S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F&P Simplus
Humidifier: H5i
CPAP Pressure: 14-20
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, Hypermobility Type; chronic sarcasm

Sex: Undisclosed
Location: western NC, USA

Post: #1
Lip leaks
I have never snored with my mouth open. Mouth breathing is not an issue for me and never has been. Even when I was congested, I snored with my mouth closed then would gasp awake, opening my mouth to breathe. Then fall asleep and do it all over again.

Even now, with me sleeping a lot on my back, my mouth isn't opening, but air is leaking through my lips. I wake up with it coming out one or both corners. My mouth isn't full like a chipmunk's, but air is coming out steady.

Because I am on my back, my 95% has increased from 15-17.x to 18-19.x. I think it is this increase that is causing the lip leaks. Despite the leaks, the leak rate isn't that high. It stays below 24, sometimes going to 30 for a few minutes. I get spikes each night but they're single spikes and must be where I take it off to adjust.

Is there anything I can do for this? I don't think a full face mask is possible. I've tried a hybrid in the past and my skin can't take the air flow. It was like being in a wind tunnel.

I won't tape my lips so don't go there.

Will a chin strap help with this? Hold my lips closed enough?

PaulaO2
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
05-09-2014 07:35 PM
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retired_guy Offline

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Posts: 2,744
Joined: Jan 2014

Machine: ResMed S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: Resmed Airfit P10
Humidifier: ResMed
CPAP Pressure: 10.6/14, EPR 3
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Is it bedtime yet?

Sex: Male
Location: Beautiful, albeit very wet Oregon Coast

Post: #2
RE: Lip leaks
Chinstrap might help. It certainly does me. But not because it holds your lips tightly shut. You don't want it tightened up that much. It just gently encourages you to keep a better seal.

I tried to eliminate the chinstrap a week or so ago, and did fine for about 2 days. Then it was put it back on time.

If you don't have a chinstrap, do you have one of those nifty head band things that people wear when they run around in circles? You might be able to use that as a test.
05-09-2014 09:20 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Posts: 4,995
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: ResMed AirCurve10 VAuto
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F&P Simplus
Humidifier: HumidAir and SlimLine Hose
CPAP Pressure: MaxI 13.6 | MinE 5.2 | PS 4.4
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Diagnosed Nov 2011. Conquered aerophagia.

Sex: Male
Location: Houston, Texas

Post: #3
RE: Lip leaks
I think a chin strap will help because I don't think the leak is at the lips. The air has to leak into your mouth before it can leak through your lips, and the chin strap will help you stop that from happening.

It's quite possible that it's these leaks that are causing those spikes.

You've probably heard me say this before. The chin strap should be loose enough that it's not uncomfortable, but it should tight enough that it's uncomfortable to chew.

I get large leaks when my chin strap is too loose, or has worn out and lost its elasticity. As it wears I have to keep tightening it. The more I wash it the faster it wears out. I found that the best way to clean it is to soak it in vinegar, and then wash it by hand in the sink with mild detergent.

I take it the higher pressure has not caused your aerophagia to return? At 12 cm I'm on the verge. I feel myself swallowing air on some nights, and am a bit too gassy some days. But most of the time I have no problems.

Sleepster
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
05-09-2014 10:38 PM
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MAPnea Offline

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Posts: 182
Joined: May 2013

Machine: ResMed S9 AutoSet - currently "set" on CPAP mode
Mask Type: Other
Mask Make & Model: ResMed AirFit F10 and P10 - varies
Humidifier: ResMed H5i
CPAP Pressure: 8
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: New Sleep Doc + New DME = Trying new approach to PAP therapy.

Sex: Female
Location: near Great Basin National Park, Nevada

Post: #4
RE: Lip leaks
Actually, I've experienced the same "lip leak" as Paula. Even awake with the CPAP "doing it's thing", even with my teeth clenched and my tongue touching the roof of my mouth and back of my front teeth…. if the pressure is high enough, my lips start to flap….. er, leak.

So, Paula, I hope you get an answer!! Other than it's "age related" and my lips are flapping just like the flapping "wings" under my arms. I would be one happy "sleeper", if I could ditch my Quattro FX for my Swift FX.
05-09-2014 10:50 PM
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zonk Offline

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Posts: 7,908
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: A10 AutoSet
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: Activa LT
Humidifier: Integrated /ClimateLineAir
CPAP Pressure: 9/13
CPAP Software: ResScan

Other Comments: CPAP since Nov 2010

Sex: Male
Location: Australia

Post: #5
RE: Lip leaks
(05-09-2014 07:35 PM)PaulaO2 Wrote:  Will a chin strap help with this? Hold my lips closed enough?
Chinstrap can definitely helps but not going prevent some determined tiny air bubbles looking for exit between the lips
I would limit the pressure range at the expense of few apneas, that is only me but I,m a compromise type of a guy Coffee
05-09-2014 10:57 PM
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PaulaO2 Offline
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Moderators

Posts: 8,068
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F&P Simplus
Humidifier: H5i
CPAP Pressure: 14-20
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, Hypermobility Type; chronic sarcasm

Sex: Undisclosed
Location: western NC, USA

Post: #6
RE: Lip leaks
It sounds just like the mask is off. A solid stream of air, no flapping noise.

PaulaO2
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


Breathe deeply and count to zen.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
05-10-2014 12:04 AM
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PaulaO2 Offline
Wiki Editor
Moderators

Posts: 8,068
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F&P Simplus
Humidifier: H5i
CPAP Pressure: 14-20
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, Hypermobility Type; chronic sarcasm

Sex: Undisclosed
Location: western NC, USA

Post: #7
RE: Lip leaks
And no, the aerophagia has not returned. I thought it would but it hasn't. Really surprised me!

However, since I raised the max to 20, the number of central events have increased. I can look at the pressure graph and know there were a lot of CAs. If there's the usual gentle wave-like graph, then the CAs were low. But if it is high and choppy for extended periods, I will have more CAs than OAs. AHI is still below 5 so I'm not concerned, just something I've observed.

And holy crap, there's a lot of chin straps. When did that happen?

PaulaO2
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


Breathe deeply and count to zen.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
05-10-2014 12:18 AM
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Peter_C Offline

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Posts: 1,308
Joined: Sep 2013

Machine: System One DS960HS
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Mirage Quattro "MED"
Humidifier: Attached
CPAP Pressure: Auto mode-script is:15/3/3
CPAP Software: EncoreBasic Other Software

Other Comments: Severe obstructive sleep apnea 1999/Just got an ASV machine

Sex: Male
Location: Akron, Ohio USA

Post: #8
RE: Lip leaks
I too have this issue. So then I went on a $400+ FFM buying binge. While this 'solves' the above issue, and knocks my leak rate down to basically nothing, I quite honestly hate full face masks.

My personal favorite mask is a small nasal mask. And, if I raise my pressure (both EPAP and PS) by 1 each, my leak rate does go up, but I sleep better, my AHI is overall better (which bares the question, if my leak rate is in the 24-40 range, is my AHI number no longer valid?)

When staying with a FFM, it encourages me to start mouth-breathing (as opposed to the lip hissing) and I get the dry mouth issues.

But if I use the 'Wisp" nasal mask (which I really really like) and raise my numbers a touch, will that offset the higher leak rate? If I ignore the numbers, I sleep better with the Wisp, and the listed AHI is between 4 and 10, but the leak rate is rather ugly.

So honestly, I am not sure which way to go...

*I* am not a DOCTOR or any type of Health Care Professional. My thoughts/suggestions/ideas are strictly only my opinions.

"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you. Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your Soul, the other for your Freedom."
05-10-2014 12:24 AM
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Sleepster Offline
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Posts: 4,995
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: ResMed AirCurve10 VAuto
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: F&P Simplus
Humidifier: HumidAir and SlimLine Hose
CPAP Pressure: MaxI 13.6 | MinE 5.2 | PS 4.4
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: Diagnosed Nov 2011. Conquered aerophagia.

Sex: Male
Location: Houston, Texas

Post: #9
RE: Lip leaks
(05-10-2014 12:24 AM)Peter_C Wrote:  (which bares the question, if my leak rate is in the 24-40 range, is my AHI number no longer valid?)

My understanding is that it's not valid when the unintentional leak rate is that high.

Certainly the machine cannot accurately distinguish between CA's and OA's and I doubt it could even accurately distinguish them from hypopneas or even determine the length of events or even if there's an event.

Sleepster
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
05-10-2014 09:40 AM
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jball61 Offline

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Posts: 2
Joined: May 2014

Machine: Resmed S9 Auto
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: Mirage FX
Humidifier: Resmed S9 auto
CPAP Pressure: 10-15 cm (auto)
CPAP Software: ResScan

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Michigan

Post: #10
RE: Lip leaks
I have had this problem for years. My solution is to tape most of my lips together using Chin-up Strips. I use the white adhesive strips
that come off easily with hot water. These are not for everyone. My buddy tried it and he did not like it, but I swear by them. I leave
some open space to breath in the event of a power failure and the machine stops working. The adhesive is not strong. You can easily
over power the tape if you need too. You can google the website using the key words Chin-up strip and I have seen them for sale
on Amazon too.
05-10-2014 10:21 AM
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