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Measles -- vacinate old people?
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Post: #31
RE: Measles -- vacinate old people?
I used to be against vaccinations. Then I was living in Hong Kong in 2003 during the SARS epidemic.

Best advice to Hong Kong that I personally witnessed was a session at the FCC by the top epidemiologist from the London College of Medicine. I learned more about viruses than I'd ever thought I needed to know. And that it takes 6 months, once the relatively stable mutation of the virus has happened in its human-to-human transmission stage, to create a vaccine.

I don't want to revisit the statistics, but lots of good medical professionals, doctors, nurses, lost their lives during that epidemic. Over 300 people in one building alone. Yes, the world breathed a sigh of relief once a vaccine was available. Including Canada.

Not to mention the economic cost. Had to shut down my company completely, never to be revived, because all that time we could not travel to complete our contracts in China.

I still jump a bit when I see people sneeze or cough without any attempt to cover their mouths or noses, especially when around a lot of people in their 70s, 80s, or more. And around babies.

And I agree with DocWils.
05-15-2015 08:17 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Measles -- vacinate old people?
(05-15-2015 07:01 PM)DocWils Wrote:  Also, do the maths - if 10% of the population is not vaccinated that leaves in the US 3,190,000 who are not vaccinated. Nice sized epidemic waiting to happen, if you ask me. Let me repeat that number - 3 MILLION 190 THOUSAND people at risk.

Sorry ffolks, but as you would say, that got my dander up. Not much does, but that sort of thing does.

I can see that you are so upset you are stuttering Too-funny

Doc a couple of things. The US is a big place. That 10% are not likely stacked on top of each other.

Second you Swiss may be hard headed logical and apolitical. I wouldn't know. Here everything has become politicized and I have witnessed studies manipulated to serve a politically desired outcome. Figures may not lie but liars definitely use figures. So please forgive me if I do not accept the idea that people crossing our southern border in large quantities are universally vaccinated. People treating southern boarder crossers are stripped of their phone and cameras and threatened with dismissed if they tell what they have seen. Why?

If vaccinations are so effective are not the only people at risk are the small minded?

BTW my children and I have all been vaccinated.

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05-15-2015 08:26 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Measles -- vacinate old people?
Alan,

How do YOU know if you have the flu or not? Are you trained to spot it? Do YOU have the knowledge to determine if someone has the flu just by looking at them? We are trained to see things, we spend YEARS learning how to tell if someone is sick what they might be sick from and the labs for determining flu are so simple I can do it in my office in a portable machine, as most GPs have in their practice - they don't have to be sent out any more for analysis. Those days are past. For that matter, how do you know you have not had the flu ever? did you never fall sick a day in your life? Have something that resembled a clod but felt a bit worse? Boy, if you haven't ever been sick a day in your life, well, bravo, fella! But you are still talking through your hat. I see cases of real, honest to god influenza every year pass through my wards, and I am not even an immunologist! Every year old people die from it.

You proceed from the idea that just because you have never encountered it it doesn't exist. If you have never encountered a Tamil, I guess they don't exist either, nor do tigers. All those photos are just for show.

And yes, you should get vaccinated so you don't infect other people, but also because you should not get sick yourself. And yes, IF!!!!!! You are gambling here, but unlike flood insurance, you are not only gambling with your own life, but with the lives of others, too. Good luck with that.

And yes, doctors get it wrong, but when it comes to medical matters, non-doctors get it wrong far more often and to a far greater degree. Reading a bit on a web site does not qualify you to pass medical judgements that may affect other people, even when you read it on the CDC's web site. For one thing, you may imperfectly understand what is being said there or simply cherry-pick the fact you want. For instance, one thing you didn't understand is what the CDC said about the samples they get. Do you honestly think every sample in the US is sent to the CDC for testing? Almost no samples are, unless there is something there that is unknown to the local labs that looks like it MAY be influenza of an unknown strain and should be reported for whatever reason. Most times, it is either a known strain or something other than influenza. And that is only after hospital labs have had a go at it and still could not figure it out and bowed to the rules about such things. So, the CDC sees very few samples in the scheme of things. What you miss in all that is the yearly hunt for new strains of the virus, not the already identified strains which any lab can figure out pretty easily. You did not understand the context of the information, because you don't have the background and perhaps the web site did not give you enough information to understand that aspect. Instead you just cherry picked a bit and ran with it. Doctors DO know better in that regard.

The original poster wanted to know if it was necessary to get re-vaccinated for the protection to be continued, and the answer is yes, the original measles vaccination loses its efficacy after you turn 50 or so. You don't have to get re-vaccinated if you don't want to, but you should know that the protection from the childhood vaccination is likely no longer effective. What you do with it is your look-out. What I think of what you do with it is mine, and I have expressed mine, because I see the one who get sick (although I don't have a strong opinion on measles re-vaccination, but I do on flu and other more commonly virulent infectious diseases). Healthy people don't see doctors (which is sometimes a bit depressing, because I would love to see healthy people from time to time). Sick people do. I see what happens when you don't vaccinate, you most likely don't, since you you aren't going to see sick people out on the street all the time.

So, yes, people who say don't get vaccinated, it is a scam or bad for you or a plot or whatever are full of crap. Plain and simple. Sure,we make our living out of sick people, but we would rather not, if it is all the same to you. Frankly, sick people always make me feel icky - probably why I went into surgery rather than internal medicine. I'm a germophobe. And yes, we push pills if it helps, and some buggers do even when it doesn't help, but they are far rarer than you think, thank Galen.

I cannot speak for US statistics, but here, when we say someone has the flu, they do. And yes, we do take blood, but as I said, the labs are easy to do in every GP's surgery. Nice machine, looks like a big grey humidifier with an input for the blood and a printout on the side for the results. Takes ten minutes or less. Those without a machine can do a quick and dirty check in a few minutes with a microscope and some dyes - we are looking for certain factors, not for the virus itself - it can be inferred from other factors just as easily. And the reason we might not bother to even do a lab is because if you have fever, runny nose, sore throat, muscle pains, headache, coughing, and are feeling tired then the chances you have the flu are relatively high, so if there is no lab in house, it might not be worth confirming if the symptoms line up and are clear enough. Outside of antivirals, no medication effective, and even antivirals are only effective if administered early in the infection (although for at-risk patients we will try at any phase, since it can be life-threatening for certain types and we will do whatever we can to keep them from further harm), and if your doctor says you have the flu and pushes anti-biotics on you, say no, because they don't do anything. Influenza is a virus. Take aspirin or paracetamol, drink plenty of fluid and go to bed. So why vaccinate, especially if you are older? Simple - flu causes three to five million cases of severe illness and about 250,000 to 500,000 deaths worldwide each year. Plain and simple. You could be one of them. Or you could kill someone else, but I suppose you could care less about that, because if someone gets sick, how is it your problem, even if you were the carrier? After all, you know better, don't you?
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2015 08:31 PM by DocWils.)
05-15-2015 08:28 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Measles -- vacinate old people?
SARS happened also in Toronto.

It didn't happen in Tokyo.

Your argument about density is flawed.

And by the way, wild birds carry these viruses all the time, much the same way many humans carry viruses, many of which are kept under control by the immune system. Until they're not, like the various forms of herpes.

It's not that hard for the wild birds to infect domestic birds. Stress, environmental stress and/or stress from hunting can accelerate that process. Stress makes other living things less healthy or even sick, just like for people.

And then because some viruses mutate very quickly, even in less than 24 hours, other animals, including humans. Human-to-human transmission is when you can get epidemics. Containment is what you use until/unless you have vaccines.
05-15-2015 08:33 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Measles -- vacinate old people?
Mark, you are right, the Us is a big place and all the at-risk patients are not stacked on top of each other - the illustration was just to give an idea of the scale.

Sure some Mexicans are not vaccinated, but the bulk of the problem is in the US itself, plain and simple. No need to politicise it at all - the facts are the facts. And yes, we Swiss DOCTORS are hard headed. Swiss citizens aren't. But they are soft-hearted - we have the highest rate of charity giving in all of Europe, and on a per capita size take in more refugees and asylum seekers than any other European nation.

And honestly, do we also want the small minded to get sick and die? I don't - I am an equal opportunity healer, and try my darnedest not to care how small minded a patient is, although some have indeed driven me up the wall.

The ffolks was not a stutter, but an old habit I got into in tribute to Michael Ffolkes, an illustrator for Punch and the New Yorker who I greatly admired. Some people get the reference, most don't. Call it my private joke.
05-15-2015 08:40 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Measles -- vacinate old people?
(05-15-2015 08:28 PM)DocWils Wrote:  Alan,

How do YOU know if you have the flu or not? Are you trained to spot it? Do YOU have the knowledge to determine if someone has the flu just by looking at them? We are trained to see things, we spend YEARS learning how to tell if someone is sick what they might be sick from and the labs for determining flu are so simple I can do it in my office in a portable machine, as most GPs have in their practice - they don't have to be sent out any more for analysis. Those days are past. For that matter, how do you know you have not had the flu ever? did you never fall sick a day in your life? Have something that resembled a clod but felt a bit worse? Boy, if you haven't ever been sick a day in your life, well, bravo, fella! But you are still talking through your hat. I see cases of real, honest to god influenza every year pass through my wards, and I am not even an immunologist! Every year old people die from it.

You proceed from the idea that just because you have never encountered it it doesn't exist. If you have never encountered a Tamil, I guess they don't exist either, nor do tigers. All those photos are just for show.

And yes, you should get vaccinated so you don't infect other people, but also because you should not get sick yourself. And yes, IF!!!!!! You are gambling here, but unlike flood insurance, you are not only gambling with your own life, but with the lives of others, too. Good luck with that.

And yes, doctors get it wrong, but when it comes to medical matters, non-doctors get it wrong far more often and to a far greater degree. Reading a bit on a web site does not qualify you to pass medical judgements that may affect other people, even when you read it on the CDC's web site. For one thing, you may imperfectly understand what is being said there or simply cherry-pick the fact you want. For instance, one thing you didn't understand is what the CDC said about the samples they get. Do you honestly think every sample in the US is sent to the CDC for testing? Almost no samples are, unless there is something there that is unknown to the local labs that looks like it MAY be influenza of an unknown strain and should be reported for whatever reason. Most times, it is either a known strain or something other than influenza. And that is only after hospital labs have had a go at it and still could not figure it out and bowed to the rules about such things. So, the CDC sees very few samples in the scheme of things. What you miss in all that is the yearly hunt for new strains of the virus, not the already identified strains which any lab can figure out pretty easily. You did not understand the context of the information, because you don't have the background and perhaps the web site did not give you enough information to understand that aspect. Instead you just cherry picked a bit and ran with it. Doctors DO know better in that regard.

The original poster wanted to know if it was necessary to get re-vaccinated for the protection to be continued, and the answer is yes, the original measles vaccination loses its efficacy after you turn 50 or so. You don't have to get re-vaccinated if you don't want to, but you should know that the protection from the childhood vaccination is likely no longer effective. What you do with it is your look-out. What I think of what you do with it is mine, and I have expressed mine, because I see the one who get sick (although I don't have a strong opinion on measles re-vaccination, but I do on flu and other more commonly virulent infectious diseases). Healthy people don't see doctors (which is sometimes a bit depressing, because I would love to see healthy people from time to time). Sick people do. I see what happens when you don't vaccinate, you most likely don't, since you you aren't going to see sick people out on the street all the time.

So, yes, people who say don't get vaccinated, it is a scam or bad for you or a plot or whatever are full of crap. Plain and simple. Sure,we make our living out of sick people, but we would rather not, if it is all the same to you. Frankly, sick people always make me feel icky - probably why I went into surgery rather than internal medicine. I'm a germophobe. And yes, we push pills if it helps, and some buggers do even when it doesn't help, but they are far rarer than you think, thank Galen.

I cannot speak for US statistics, but here, when we say someone has the flu, they do. And yes, we do take blood, but as I said, the labs are easy to do in every GP's surgery. Nice machine, looks like a big grey humidifier with an input for the blood and a printout on the side for the results. Takes ten minutes or less. Those without a machine can do a quick and dirty check in a few minutes with a microscope and some dyes - we are looking for certain factors, not for the virus itself - it can be inferred from other factors just as easily. And the reason we might not bother to even do a lab is because if you have fever, runny nose, sore throat, muscle pains, headache, coughing, and are feeling tired then the chances you have the flu are relatively high, so if there is no lab in house, it might not be worth confirming if the symptoms line up and are clear enough. Outside of antivirals, no medication effective, and even antivirals are only effective if administered early in the infection (although for at-risk patients we will try at any phase, since it can be life-threatening for certain types and we will do whatever we can to keep them from further harm), and if your doctor says you have the flu and pushes anti-biotics on you, say no, because they don't do anything. Influenza is a virus. Take aspirin or paracetamol, drink plenty of fluid and go to bed. So why vaccinate, especially if you are older? Simple - flu causes three to five million cases of severe illness and about 250,000 to 500,000 deaths worldwide each year. Plain and simple. You could be one of them. Or you could kill someone else, but I suppose you could care less about that, because if someone gets sick, how is it your problem, even if you were the carrier? After all, you know better, don't you?

Doc: I am the OP. I get a flu vaccine every year. I have had every immunization one can think of. Including Hep-A and Hep-B.

My maternal grandmother died of influenza in 1918 at the age of 23.

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05-15-2015 10:58 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Measles -- vacinate old people?
I didn't get vaccinated this year because they said that the flu vaccine would not help against the strain that was going around this year. But, I also don't go out where there are a lot of people very often and certainly don't if I am sick. I just got off an antibiotic (CIPRO) which I absolutely hate taking and avoid it at all costs. It is a miserable antibiotic. I slept a lot at first and then got insomnia. You can't have calcium within a certain time frame and most everything has calcium in it and no caffeine, etc. etc. and it made it hard to eat anything. I didn't have the flu though.

I did have a pneumonia shot 3 or 4 years ago and that was the first one I ever had and the first time a doc told me about it. I never concerned myself with measles shot after 50 because I was told measles was under control but is it really? People still get measles so it may not be like it used to be but people still get measles. We all had the measles and only one of us had the mumps and that sibling had to be hospitalized.

We just get too comfortable sometimes and some of us have experienced bad doctoring (I know I have and with HMO's, PPO's and medicare dictating coverages and what docs get paid, docs schedule appointments every 10 minutes and rush patients through like cattle here).

Personally, I don't think saying hateful things to anyone is going to solve anything. It is very disrespectful and bothersome when we are all here for the good of each other and to help each other.

I am more inclined to accept what the doc says but I am not always that willing to trust what I am told. To ME, what he said makes sense to me.
(This post was last modified: 05-16-2015 01:39 AM by me50.)
05-16-2015 01:21 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Measles -- vacinate old people?
(05-16-2015 01:21 AM)me50 Wrote:  I didn't get vaccinated this year because they said that the flu vaccine would not help against the strain that was going around this year.

If someone actually told you that, they're an idiot.

What they did say was that there were some strains in the wild that weren't covered by that year's vaccine. The vaccine still covered several strains of flu that were either out there or could spread that year.

Think of it as being like a bullet proof vest. This year's vest doesn't cover as much of your body as last year's vest, but it still covers part of your body.

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05-16-2015 01:31 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Measles -- vacinate old people?
(05-15-2015 07:24 PM)AlanE Wrote:  I've never received a "flu vaccine" and have never had the "flu". What you don't say nor admit is that the majority of people who doctors claim as "having the flu" have never had the flu. You can't make that diagnosis in the exam room. It requires a lab and according to CDC themselves most of what they are given to screen for "flu" is not flu. Its nice to sit there and say "I am a doctor, therefore you are an idiot." it doesn't make it true.

An average of 20,000 to 40,000 people die of the flu in the US every year. You may quibble about the precise numbers, but it's still a heck of a lot of people. One of the big partially preventable causes of death.

The 1918 flu pandemic killed off something like 3-5% of the population of the whole world.

There are some bird flu strains out there that have something like a 50% human fatality rate. Fortunately, the highly fatal flu strains don't spread easily from human to human. Yet. Flu strains are mutating and mixing all the time. We may get the mix of a highly infectious flu with a highly fatal flu at some time.

I think some future "supermix" flu is one of the biggest risks we have for a mass disaster in our society. A 1918 style pandemic that killed 5% of the population would kill 15 million in the USA alone, and 350 million worldwide.

I will agree about one thing. We often say "flu" when it isn't. That's a reasonable precaution. If you have flu-like symptoms, it's good to act as if you have the flu and watch out for infecting your loved ones and acquaintances, and you should also watch out for the serious or fatal complications of the flu.

I've always gotten the flu shots, and used to think I still got the flu most years. However, when I read up on the symptoms and how to tell a cold from the flu, I realized that most years I just had a cold or something else, not the flu.

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05-16-2015 01:43 AM
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Post: #40
RE: Measles -- vacinate old people?
(05-16-2015 01:31 AM)archangle Wrote:  
(05-16-2015 01:21 AM)me50 Wrote:  I didn't get vaccinated this year because they said that the flu vaccine would not help against the strain that was going around this year.

If someone actually told you that, they're an idiot.

What they did say was that there were some strains in the wild that weren't covered by that year's vaccine. The vaccine still covered several strains of flu that were either out there or could spread that year.

Think of it as being like a bullet proof vest. This year's vest doesn't cover as much of your body as last year's vest, but it still covers part of your body.

I hear what you are saying and if I was out in the public a lot then I would have considered it. I, for one, do NOT go in public if I am the slightest bit sick. However, I realize that I could have the beginning of an illness and not know it so next year, I will most likely do things differently. Oh, it was a medical professional that told me that the flu vaccine did not cover the strain of flu that was prevalent this year. I quit seeing that NP and only see the doc now because they were ignoring things I was mentioning to them and subsequently lead to a pretty nasty illness with an even nastier antibiotic that is used to treat anthrax. I never want to take that antibiotic again. I know I am not perfect and that I don't always make the right decision but I try to.
05-16-2015 01:44 AM
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