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Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare ,cpap and distilled water for humidifier
#31
RE: Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare ,cpap and distilled water for humidifier
(08-25-2018, 07:44 AM)chip mcdonald Wrote:
(08-24-2018, 11:23 PM)Melman Wrote: There are two things wrong with this proposal. First, as has been explained over and over again in this thread and others, a high level sanitation is not necessary

"High level of sanitation" is relative.  I want to use filtered tap water.  Non-sterilized it will contain microorganisms.


And as soon as you start using the CPAP machine that night, and undoubtedly even before that, air-borne microorganisms will re-enter the water. Therefore going to a "high level" of sanitation to remove them is sisyphean.

I think this is Melman's point.

Quote:I will be using distilled water; non-osmotic filters do not address dissolved solids.  There are other things to worry about in tap water than just biology - there is asbestos and other minerals, dissolved solids I do not wish to be routinely aerosolized into my lungs for the rest of my life.

Manufacturers recommend using distilled water, so why not just leave it at that and use distilled water? If you need more justification than that, you'll not find there's a consensus that any exist.

Your argument could be likewise applied to the drinking or culinary use of that water. And if indeed one wanted to use distilled water only for drinking and cooking one could do that. But again there is no consensus that such a practice would achieve the goals used to justify it.
Sleepster

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#32
RE: Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare ,cpap and distilled water for humidifier
(08-25-2018, 07:44 AM)chip mcdonald Wrote:
Quote: I can't help but wonder why, as a non-CPAP user you have chosen to pick this discussion.

Because you haven't considered that I *will* be a CPAP user, hopefully as of Monday when my machine arrives.  

I will be using distilled water; non-osmotic filters do not address dissolved solids.  There are other things to worry about in tap water than just biology - there is asbestos and other minerals, dissolved solids I do not wish to be routinely aerosolized into my lungs for the rest of my life.

I apologize for questioning your intent. Occasionally individuals post in the forum just to stir up controversy. I wish you success with CPAP therapy.

I think you are overly concerned with the threat of microbial and other contaminants from the humidifier. Very little of the water is aerosolized. Pall filter company published a study to promote the use of sterilizing membrane filters between the humidifier and mask. In their control studies without filters they inoculated humidifier water with very high numbers of bacteria and screened for them downstream at the mask. They found, that although some were carried through the hose, the number was reduced 10,000 fold. That indicates a very low level of aerosolization.


Everything we do that disrupts water a stream or the surface of standing water generates an aerosol. We are exposed to more aerosolized water in daily activities such as showering, washing our hands, brushing teeth, etc. than from a CPAP humidifier.
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#33
RE: Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare ,cpap and distilled water for humidifier
(08-13-2018, 02:36 PM)Sleeprider Wrote: Cpapian, municipal water is safe and you should have minimal deposits if you exchange water daily. Chlorine residual is required in most public water supplies and the amount varies. If the odor is objectionable, then using any of the drinking water filters that remove chlorine will give you excellent water. I use a Zero Water pitcher, but Brita and others also remove chlorine and provide better tasting water for drinking and I recommend their use for a CPAP humidifier as an economical source of clean water with no odor.  Chlorine residual in public drinking water is at low levels and is not hazardous to you, but may be objectionable to some individuals.  Your tolerance is the real key.

When I finished the bottle of distilled water, I switched to tap water.

When I masked up, the smell reminded me of the cat's letter box.  Ammonia.   Guess that was the chlorine.  Pretty pervasive.  I'm curious, if I use the brita does it remove the chlorine or just the smell of chlorine?
Sleep-well
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#34
RE: Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare ,cpap and distilled water for humidifier
Brita and other filters of that type use 'activated' charcoal which should diminish the objectionable taste of tap water.  It won't purify tap water.  It won't remove much, if any, of the dissolved solids and minerals.  Tap water should have already been sediment-ridded and treated with either UV, chlorine, or bromine.  About all one could object to after proper municipal treatment is hardness, lignins, tannins, and taste.  This assumes it isn't in need of further treatment due to asbestos, arsenic, and other toxins.

Cheaper than Brita filters and their reservoirs is just letting a quantity of tap water sit.  This advice has long since been given to those who home-brew beers and wines who want to use the local water, but who fear that the chorine will interfere with both the yeasts and the eventual taste experience.  Take what you intend to use over the next four or five days and let it sit in an open container for a few days covered loosely with a piece of cardboard.
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#35
RE: Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare ,cpap and distilled water for humidifier
Cpapian, I used to work for Metro Toronto maintaining some of the computers for the Water Supply Dept. so I learned a bit about water treatment.
For the benefit of others, Toronto is on the north side of Lake Ontario, at about 77 m (250 ft) above MSL and extends north, and uphill, for about 20 km (12 miles) , but pumps water to outlying suburbs as far as 20 miles to almost 200 m (650 ft) above MSL. All that pumping is done in stages, via multiple reservoirs and tanks, and takes 3 to 4 days. As mesenteria states, the chlorine dissipates - even in the closed pipes underground, so the filtration plants inject extra chlorine to make sure there is still enough chlorine residual by the time the water reaches the out suburbs.
All this to say that if you live close to your water supply plants (within 3 or 4 miles) you will more often notice the chlorine odour. I live fairly downtown and I use a Brita filter for all my coffee, tea, and drinking water.
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#36
RE: Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare ,cpap and distilled water for humidifier
The Zero Water pitcher is the best on the market and actually does purify with a 5-stage filter. It removes hardness, dissolved solids, chlorine and any metals and organics. The "smell" of chlorine is usually chloramine which is the reacted byproduct when chlorine is used in the presence of organics and ammonia. So you'er somewhat right. The Zero Water will remove that as well.
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#37
RE: Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare ,cpap and distilled water for humidifier
(08-12-2018, 10:50 AM)mesenteria Wrote: There are two practical ways of purifying water: distillation and reverse-osmosis.  Distillation involves water molecules leaving the surface of water due to vapour pressure locally.  Bacteria are millions of times larger than a single molecule of evaporating water.  So, no worries about inhaling bacteria.  A shower is different.  It sprays water, and of course that means many zillions of evaporated water molecules from the droplets and micro-droplets.  But, it's still evaporated...no bacteria.  However...……...them pesky micro-droplets and aerosols...they are what you must worry about.  

Our evaporative PAP systems don't produce airborne pathogen transfer.  Their mediums might encourage the growth of those pathogens locally/internally to the machine and its airway, but you won't get anything from that except spores.  And that term 'myco-x' is a problem there because myco generally infers spore production...molds.  In this case, it has to do with mycolic acid, not spore production.

To summarize, you can't get airborne infection from your PAP's airway supply unless it harbours spores.  If it is mold-free, and only evaporates water, then you get nothing more than water vapour which is akin to distilled water anyway.

Interesting - how do you know if there aren't bacterial spores grown inside the machine? Not talking about the hose or water tank that can easily be cleaned.
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#38
RE: Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare ,cpap and distilled water for humidifier
The machine only has the ambient air that you normally breathe passing through it. If contains any mold spores, you have a bigger problem within your domicile.
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#39
RE: Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare ,cpap and distilled water for humidifier
(02-02-2022, 08:58 AM)Kafka82 Wrote: Interesting - how do you know if there aren't bacterial spores grown inside the machine? Not talking about the hose or water tank that can easily be cleaned.

First, bacterial spores are dormant and do not grow. if any are pulled in from the ambient air, which you are already breathing they will not grow in the machine.

Second, very few pathogenic bacteria form spores and most pathogens will not survive long in the machine due to lack of nutrients.
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#40
RE: Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare ,cpap and distilled water for humidifier
I read recently that we have increasing problems here in Oz with new-build projects, or rather buildings that are just a few years old. The problem - surprisingly - is lead contamination in the water supply. That's a problem that was supposedly fixed years ago.

The new problem appears to be associated with plumbing fittings made in China, where they are exceeding the permitted level of lead in brass alloys. This makes them easier to machine and so reduces the manufacturing cost. I can't remember the details but the lead apparently leaches in increasing amounts as time goes on. The scale of the problem is unknown at present but is likely to be hugely expensive to fix, requiring many apartment blocks to be more or less re-plumbed.
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