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Nasal congestion Humidifier settings
#11
RE: Nasal congestion Humidifier settings
(10-24-2017, 09:09 AM)DeepBreathing Wrote:
jerry1967 Wrote:Remember the three people that died from brain infection because they used tap water? Infection moved from sinus to brain.

Which three people were they Jerry? I haven't heard of this - can you give me a link or point to a newspaper report so I can read it up?

Quote:They said it is ok to use tap water but it must be boiled first.

Who are "they"?  We've had this discussion many times on Apnea Board, and people who are far more qualified than I (in relation to infection control) have told us that normal first world tap water is fine to use. The recommendation to use distilled water is based on the likelihood of mineral deposits forming in the humidifier, nothing to do with infection.  On the other hand, if I am travelling in places where the tap water isn't considered safe to drink then I use bottled water in the machine, just as an extra precaution.

You will have to google it.  . I use distilled myself.
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#12
RE: Nasal congestion Humidifier settings
(10-26-2017, 04:30 PM)jerry1967 Wrote: Who are "they"?  We've had this discussion many times on Apnea Board, and people who are far more qualified than I (in relation to infection control) have told us that normal first world tap water is fine to use. The recommendation to use distilled water is based on the likelihood of mineral deposits forming in the humidifier, nothing to do with infection.  On the other hand, if I am travelling in places where the tap water isn't considered safe to drink then I use bottled water in the machine, just as an extra precaution.

They? 

Apparently, two people died from infected tap water --possibly associated with "neti pots" --  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tap-water-i...ion-finds/

Here is a cite that only 35 people have died in 10 years: https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2...f781a56933

Here is the CDC bulletin with medical references: https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/naegleria/...nsing.html

I can find no reference to this issue and CPAP usage with humidifiers -- probably because it doesn't exist or the probability is infinitesimal.
"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
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#13
RE: Nasal congestion Humidifier settings
(10-24-2017, 11:31 AM)Walla Walla Wrote: Odds of dying from Naegleria fowleri 1 in 50,000,000 Rolleyes

You're either naïve or disingenuous.

You can't present statistics from the population at large. What you really need are statistics from people who engaged in that behavior.

For example, my chance of dying playing Russian Roulette is exactly 0%, because I wouldn't do that.

If someone takes a six chamber revolver and loads one chamber and then randomly spins it and then shoots it at his head, then his odds of dying become a lot closer to 1:6 or 17% rather than 0%.

When you evaluate the odds of dying from Russian Roulette, you must account for whether or not a person engages in that behavior. The difference could be as large as going from 0% to 17%.

As to the topic at hand, my intuition is that using tap water in a CPAP humidifier is more "dangerous" than using distilled water. My intuition is that allowing water to stagnate in the humidifier for many days is more "dangerous" than replacing the water every day. That's why I throw away the old water from the humidifier every day when I get up. I then use fresh distilled water before I go to bed.

I don't know the actual odds of how much "safer" my behavior is, but neither do you!
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#14
RE: Nasal congestion Humidifier settings
Well no known cases have ever been in Oregon so your pretty safe. Also no known cases from using CPAP anywhere.

Whatever the odds they're pretty slim.
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#15
RE: Nasal congestion Humidifier settings
(10-26-2017, 07:54 PM)srlevine1 Wrote: Apparently, two people died from infected tap water --possibly associated with "neti pots" --  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tap-water-i...ion-finds/
Could'nt they just have well died from drinking it? I use tap water in my neti-pot but I also drink it just as well and I aint died yet.
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#16
RE: Nasal congestion Humidifier settings
(10-26-2017, 09:00 PM)SnoringInOregon Wrote:
(10-24-2017, 11:31 AM)Walla Walla Wrote: Odds of dying from Naegleria fowleri 1 in 50,000,000 Rolleyes

You're either naïve or disingenuous.

You can't present statistics from the population at large. What you really need are statistics from people who engaged in that behavior.

For example, my chance of dying playing Russian Roulette is exactly 0%, because I wouldn't do that.

If someone takes a six chamber revolver and loads one chamber and then randomly spins it and then shoots it at his head, then his odds of dying become a lot closer to 1:6 or 17% rather than 0%.

When you evaluate the odds of dying from Russian Roulette, you must account for whether or not a person engages in that behavior. The difference could be as large as going from 0% to 17%.

As to the topic at hand, my intuition is that using tap water in a CPAP humidifier is more "dangerous" than using distilled water. My intuition is that allowing water to stagnate in the humidifier for many days is more "dangerous" than replacing the water every day. That's why I throw away the old water from the humidifier every day when I get up. I then use fresh distilled water before I go to bed.

I don't know the actual odds of how much "safer" my behavior is, but neither do you!

Might I suggest that snarky answers (the ones that go beyond sarcasm and humor) have no place in a polite discussion among forum friends. 

In any event, you did not qualify your Russian Roulette statement with "in a well-maintained revolver without significant wear or damage to the cylinder (especially the cylinder ratchet mechanism). And, let us not forget the rotational dynamics affected by one loaded-cartridge in the cylinder which also changes the dynamic balance and timing as the cylinder spins. 

And the statement "You can't present statistics from the population at large. What you really need are statistics from people who engaged in that behavior." is easily falsified 
because determining the odds of a person dying by playing Russian Roulette would be calculated using a general population sample (those who might play as well as those who play) or a subset sample of people limited to those who actually play the game -- depending on your purpose in conducting the research.  

No one really knows anything about an individual because that is the point of a probability calculation. 

We are not all subject-matter experts and anyone can be "ignorant" in any area, so a little tolerance and less "You're either naïve or disingenuous."
"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
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#17
RE: Nasal congestion Humidifier settings
I generally bounce mine around 4-6.
I've always had congestion problems, so I adjust mine as the ambient humidity level changes to keep it right on the edge of getting rainout (I use a hose cover, but not a heated hose). It's on 6 right now, but humidity is under 40%, and this week it's been as low as 10% outside, 25% inside.
I'll pull it back down to 4 when the humidity rises.
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#18
RE: Nasal congestion Humidifier settings
(10-26-2017, 09:19 PM)Walla Walla Wrote: Well no known cases have ever been in Oregon so your pretty safe. Also no known cases from using CPAP anywhere.

Whatever the odds they're pretty slim.

Bad comparator IMO. In Oregon, they seriously know how to use Neti pots correctly. The whole population. It’s in the woo gene. The gene that produced the Grateful Dead and embraced everything else fringe. Just personal experience.

Ergo, remove Oregon from the statistics.  Big Grin




On the matter of inhaling contaminated water droplets, IMO, you don’t want to put yourself at risk of that one. I was the one in half a billion recipient of a permanently disfiguring and life threatening disease. I didn’t get it from a CPAP or a Neti pot, but apparently from droplets in the shower. Distilled water is hard on my budget, and I hate to throw it away, but it’s not like I’d want a repeat in the one in half a billion category.
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#19
RE: Nasal congestion Humidifier settings
To the OP's question about nasal congestion, although it's a data point of just one, I'd say yes, in my case setting the humidity at 3 has made a noticeable improvement in nasal congestion, as well as getting me through allergy season with far fewer nasal symptoms than I've had over the course of several previous years, as far back as I can remember.

It's certainly worth trying, and it may very well make a difference for you, too.
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#20
RE: Nasal congestion Humidifier settings
(10-26-2017, 09:19 PM)Walla Walla Wrote: Well no known cases have ever been in Oregon so your pretty safe. Also no known cases from using CPAP anywhere.

Whatever the odds they're pretty slim.

I agree that odds of dying specifically from Naegleria fowleri are probably very very low.

However, there are all sorts of other maladies that may result. For example, what if CPAP users (especially with dirty tanks) are more likely to get pneumonia or even die from something like Legionnaire's Disease? That bacterium seems pretty nasty:

The bacterium is found naturally in fresh water. It can contaminate hot water tanks, hot tubs, and cooling towers of large air conditioners. It is usually spread by breathing in mist that contains the bacteria. It can also occur when contaminated water is aspirated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionnaires%27_disease

Without careful epidemiological studies, we just don't know. What if the odds of infection by Legionella are 1:1,000? It's not like anyone is tripping over themselves to do research on this, it's hardly glamorous. And if it really is 1:1000 or 1:10,000 that's much too low to easily get noticed by health authorities. And there are probably a few other types of bacteria out there that could cause problems. What if it's not one particular bacteria, but put them all together and there's a 1:100 chance that a CPAP user could get a serious infection?

And now that CPAP is approved and widely used, the manufacturers have no incentive to do any more health-related research. Why would they? CPAP is now accepted as safe, there's no upside, only downside, to further study.

I'd love to read some high level summaries of studies about respiration problems caused or exacerbated by CPAP. Do studies exist? Is there easily understood information out there?

I'm not a hypochondriac in general. But I worry a lot about my machine forcing air into my lungs every night. That's why it's a touchy subject for me.
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