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New Quattro FX FFM user--Questions
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DaveL Offline

Members

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr 2013

Machine: S9 Elite cpap with EPR
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage FX and Quattro fx
Humidifier: ResMed H5i
CPAP Pressure: 11
CPAP Software: Not using software

Other Comments: Compliant for 15 years...cranky old Hoser!

Sex: Male
Location: Canada....Hazeltown

Post: #1
New Quattro FX FFM user--Questions
I have recently felt tired, though I've been compliant for 15 years.

So...brought home a full face mask on trial. I found it hard to use. I've used nasal masks for my osa treatment.

ResMed Quattro FX
* found it hard to put on, comfortably
* shoots a very hard jet of air--my wife objects!

Any hints appreciated! I've used a nasal mask all 15 years; however, now I"ve become a mouth breather. I've used a cpap cap and I hate wearing all that gear.

DaveL
Toronto

DaveL
Cranky Old Hoser
Compliant for 18 years
04-20-2013 09:29 PM
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trish6hundred Offline

Advisory Members

Posts: 6,449
Joined: May 2012

Machine: Resmed S9 AutoSet for Her
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: Fisher & Paykel Simplus
Humidifier: H5i Heated Humidifier
CPAP Pressure: 10 - 7-20 Cm H2O
CPAP Software: Not using software

Other Comments: I started CPAP in 2008. Totally blind since birth.

Sex: Female
Location: Missouri, USA

Post: #2
RE: New Quattro FX FFM user--Questions
Hi DaveL,
WELCOME! to the forum.
It sounds like you have tried quite a few things but hang in there and I'm sure someone will have a suggestion or two for ya. I know that full-face masks, (FFMs,) can be very difficult and are quite proned to leaks.
Best of luck to you.

trish6hundred
04-20-2013 09:41 PM
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JJJ Offline

Advisory Members

Posts: 751
Joined: Apr 2012

Machine: ResMed S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: Most recent: Wisp, Pilairo, Mirage Vista
Humidifier: ResMed S9 Autoset
CPAP Pressure: 17-20
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: USA 97217

Post: #3
RE: New Quattro FX FFM user--Questions
(04-20-2013 09:29 PM)DaveL Wrote:  So...brought home a full face mask on trial. I found it hard to use. I've used nasal masks for my osa treatment.
Any hints appreciated! I've used a nasal mask all 15 years; however, now I"ve become a mouth breather. I've used a cpap cap and I hate wearing all that gear.

Have you tried a chin strap with your old nasal mask?
04-20-2013 09:49 PM
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jgjones1972 Offline

Preferred Members-2

Posts: 516
Joined: Nov 2012

Machine: ResMed S9 AutoSet
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Quattro FX
Humidifier: ResMed H5i
CPAP Pressure: 18 - 20
CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

Other Comments: CMS50I PulseOx

Sex: Male
Location: Ohio - USA

Post: #4
RE: New Quattro FX FFM user--Questions
Just a few tips.

- You can't tighten the Quattro FX down too tight. It must be loose enough to allow the air to inflate the silicone cushion.

- The silicone cushion is the key to a proper fit. It must be "squeeky clean" in order to seal against the face properly without being tightened down uncomfortably. I use warm water and mild dish soap every day.

- Wiskers can cause problems also. I shave right before bed time.

- I turn the pressure on before placing the mask against my face. This helps inflate the cushion properly.

- A leak at the top might be easily fixed by loosening the bottom rather than tightening the top - and vice versa. Tightening isn't always the answer with the Quattro FX.



I don't know of anything to do to remedy the problem of the jet of air from the exhaust vents. This seems to be a problem with quite a few masks.

Best of luck to you.
04-20-2013 10:08 PM
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Shastzi Offline

Advisory Members

Posts: 1,174
Joined: Dec 2012

Machine: ResMed S9 Autoset
Mask Type: Full face mask
Mask Make & Model: FitLife Total face mask
Humidifier: F&P HC150 with Hybernite heated hose.
CPAP Pressure: 15cm-20cm H2O (auto)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead Other Software

Other Comments: CMS50-F wearable Oximeter; Software: SPO2 Assistant

Sex: Undisclosed
Location: Florida, USA.

Post: #5
RE: New Quattro FX FFM user--Questions
I have been following all the advice and I am getting near zero leaks.
It does work. I am sure that having a standard face helps too. Smile

"With ordinary talent and extraordinary perseverance, all things are attainable." - Thomas Foxwell Buxton

Cool
04-20-2013 10:22 PM
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Bompa Offline

Monitors

Posts: 854
Joined: Mar 2012

Machine: DreamStation Pro
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: Nuance Pro
Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifer
CPAP Pressure: 12.0
CPAP Software: SleepyHead Other Software

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location: Falkenburg,

Post: #6
RE: New Quattro FX FFM user--Questions
Had the same problem with leaks etc. and started using a chin restraint and solved the problem. After a while you'll find that you can go a few nights without the restraint.
Coffee
04-21-2013 10:02 AM
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matthew1943 Offline

Members

Posts: 5
Joined: Mar 2013

Machine: Resmed 8 Elite II
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: Resmed
Humidifier: Resmed
CPAP Pressure: 5
CPAP Software: Not using software

Other Comments:

Sex: Male
Location:

Post: #7
RE: New Quattro FX FFM user--Questions
(04-20-2013 09:29 PM)DaveL Wrote:  I have recently felt tired, though I've been compliant for 15 years.

So...brought home a full face mask on trial. I found it hard to use. I've used nasal masks for my osa treatment.

ResMed Quattro FX
* found it hard to put on, comfortably
* shoots a very hard jet of air--my wife objects!

Any hints appreciated! I've used a nasal mask all 15 years; however, now I"ve become a mouth breather. I've used a cpap cap and I hate wearing all that gear.

DaveL
Toronto

What you experience is very common. Try the Hybrid mask with nasal pillows and a mouth cover to prevent mouth breathing.
These are my experiences, for what they are worth:
With tests on myself, I noticed that if I use a nasal pillow or nasal mask of whatever kind, I develop mouth breathing whenever the pressure goes above 6cm H₂O. This often causes a dry mouth which is a certain telltale. I was trying to establish why I did not feel as well as I expected, i.e. was not getting the full benefit of the CPAP when using a nasal pillow of some kind. I found that the natural resistance of my mouth tissues and lips having relaxed during sleep, can handle a delivery pressure of around 5cm H₂O before starting to leak, realizing that to exhale against a constant delivery pressure of 5cm H₂O coming into the lungs would require a return pressure of more than 7cm H₂O to push the delivery air back. Thus when these two anti-pressures totaling 12cm H₂O reach the back of my throat, it becomes natural to rather escape sideways through my mouth, if possible, than to continue along the inside of the nose to the outside of my nostrils. In my case, when I increase the delivery pressure to 6cm H₂O, the return pressure will probably have to increase to 8 or 9cm H₂O, totaling 14cm H₂O, and my natural resistance in my mouth is too low to resist and mouth breathing commences.
My guess is that most users may develop some kind of mouth breathing (leakage) depending on the pressure setting. ( Imagine if you had a delivery pressure of 10cm H₂O – with a return pressure of at least 12cm H₂O – a total of 22cm H₂O!). The CPAP machines, without exception, obviously only record a leakage (over and above the normal air escape through the mask vents) and it usually tends to be described as 'mask leakage'. This through-the-mouth escape of air into the surrounding atmosphere will cause a drop in the pressure in the airways, and all machines will respond with an increase in air volume delivery at a higher pressure to compensate – probably now exaggerating the air escape through the mouth! Not even mentioning that the higher air volume at a higher pressure is being forced through your nose – heaven forbid you have one nostril blocked! This differs markedly from a mask leakage, where the pressure in the airways remain relatively the same as the leakage is now still in the delivery system before it enters the body. To this mask leakage the machines will also respond the same, but the increased pressure and volume is not transferred to your airways but escapes through the mask leakage.
CPAP Auto, C-Flex technology and Bi-PAP machines address this high expiration pressure necessary to exhale by sensing the start of expiration and then dropping the delivery pressure by 20 – 30% so as to make exhaling (expiration) a little easier. They do succeed in making breathing easier, especially if you should need a high delivery pressure. But it becomes more difficult for these machines to predict the start of expiration when a major leak is present. No machine as yet has the capability to differentiate the position of an unintentional leak as opposed to the intentional leak provided by the vents in the mask. Therefore, even with these more expensive machines, the problem of mouth 'leaks' or mouth breathing is still present.
This drop in pressure and delivery during mouth breathing cancels most of the advantages of 'Continuous Positive Airway Pressure' (CPAP) and that appears to be the cause of my experience of not getting the expected benefits of the CPAP. The moment I switched to a full face mask or a Hybrid mask delivering positive air through my nose and covering my mouth, the problem disappeared and I have never felt better at waking in the morning. Mouth leakage now does not occur, as the pressure inside the airways, throat and mouth is the same as outside of the mouth inside the mask.
There is some discomfort and some skin side-effects as well as possible dangers ascribed to taping your mouth with paper tape or similar to prevent mouth breathing. Wearing a chin strap gives conflicting results, as most of them either slip off during sleep or may pull the lower jaw backwards, increasing the chances of apnee episodes. Various snoring devices to pull the lower jaw forward and/or seal the mouth and pull the tongue forward is not only uncomfortable, but has not been assessed as successful in preventing mouth breathing during CPAP usage.
I do realize and agree about the common reasons for not liking a full face mask, i.e. feeling hot, claustrophobic, condensation in the mask, pressure on the bridge of the nose, visible pressure marks the next morning, cannot speak to your partner, and the feeling of something big and heavy sealing you off from the outside world. But I imagine you have two choices if you want to make this CPAP experience really successful: get used to a full face mask (use a preferably bigger mask rather than smaller) – it takes easily a month, but the result is 1,000 times worth it, or try a hybrid mask where the mask does not cover the nose, no claustrophobia, and it uses nasal pillows combined with covering your mouth. It does feel a lot more comfortable with the same end result.
Therefore it appears that it is a fallacy to believe a technician or professional can really tell you how you actually feel in the morning when you wake – and he/she cannot give you a better idea of what works and what not than yourself. Trust your own feelings and intuition and take responsibility for improving your own wellbeing by responding and demanding from them the correct equipment needed as determined by your personal experience. You should also be able to adjust the delivery pressure of your machine yourself to control your own health care delivery if you so choose.
04-23-2013 10:55 PM
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DaveL Offline

Members

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr 2013

Machine: S9 Elite cpap with EPR
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage FX and Quattro fx
Humidifier: ResMed H5i
CPAP Pressure: 11
CPAP Software: Not using software

Other Comments: Compliant for 15 years...cranky old Hoser!

Sex: Male
Location: Canada....Hazeltown

Post: #8
RE: New Quattro FX FFM user--Questions
(04-20-2013 09:41 PM)trish6hundred Wrote:  Hi DaveL,
WELCOME! to the forum.
It sounds like you have tried quite a few things but hang in there and I'm sure someone will have a suggestion or two for ya. I know that full-face masks, (FFMs,) can be very difficult and are quite proned to leaks.
Best of luck to you.
Thank you!
(04-20-2013 09:49 PM)JJJ Wrote:  
(04-20-2013 09:29 PM)DaveL Wrote:  So...brought home a full face mask on trial. I found it hard to use. I've used nasal masks for my osa treatment.
Any hints appreciated! I've used a nasal mask all 15 years; however, now I"ve become a mouth breather. I've used a cpap cap and I hate wearing all that gear.

Have you tried a chin strap with your old nasal mask?
In fact I've done that for several years. I've tried various chin straps, and had most success with cpap-cap. But my rig takes a while to get on, and I'm quite tired of it.
(04-20-2013 10:08 PM)jgjones1972 Wrote:  Just a few tips.

- You can't tighten the Quattro FX down too tight. It must be loose enough to allow the air to inflate the silicone cushion.

- The silicone cushion is the key to a proper fit. It must be "squeeky clean" in order to seal against the face properly without being tightened down uncomfortably. I use warm water and mild dish soap every day.

- Wiskers can cause problems also. I shave right before bed time.

- I turn the pressure on before placing the mask against my face. This helps inflate the cushion properly.

- A leak at the top might be easily fixed by loosening the bottom rather than tightening the top - and vice versa. Tightening isn't always the answer with the Quattro FX.



I don't know of anything to do to remedy the problem of the jet of air from the exhaust vents. This seems to be a problem with quite a few masks.

Best of luck to you.
Thank you! I used this mask for 3 days and took it back.
(04-20-2013 10:22 PM)Shastzi Wrote:  I have been following all the advice and I am getting near zero leaks.
It does work. I am sure that having a standard face helps too. Smile

(04-21-2013 10:02 AM)Bompa Wrote:  Had the same problem with leaks etc. and started using a chin restraint and solved the problem. After a while you'll find that you can go a few nights without the restraint.
Coffee
I've used several chin straps after an unsuccessful attempt trying FFM several years ago. Turns out they provided the wrong size. Sad
(04-23-2013 10:55 PM)matthew1943 Wrote:  
(04-20-2013 09:29 PM)DaveL Wrote:  I have recently felt tired, though I've been compliant for 15 years.

So...brought home a full face mask on trial. I found it hard to use. I've used nasal masks for my osa treatment.

ResMed Quattro FX
* found it hard to put on, comfortably
* shoots a very hard jet of air--my wife objects!

Any hints appreciated! I've used a nasal mask all 15 years; however, now I"ve become a mouth breather. I've used a cpap cap and I hate wearing all that gear.

DaveL
Toronto
Thank you. Pressure is 11. Could be worse. Wink
My DME doesn't even talk about hybrid masks. After 14 years with absolutely horrible DME, I'm delighted to find one that is service oriented.

What you experience is very common. Try the Hybrid mask with nasal pillows and a mouth cover to prevent mouth breathing.
These are my experiences, for what they are worth:
With tests on myself, I noticed that if I use a nasal pillow or nasal mask of whatever kind, I develop mouth breathing whenever the pressure goes above 6cm H₂O. This often causes a dry mouth which is a certain telltale. I was trying to establish why I did not feel as well as I expected, i.e. was not getting the full benefit of the CPAP when using a nasal pillow of some kind. I found that the natural resistance of my mouth tissues and lips having relaxed during sleep, can handle a delivery pressure of around 5cm H₂O before starting to leak, realizing that to exhale against a constant delivery pressure of 5cm H₂O coming into the lungs would require a return pressure of more than 7cm H₂O to push the delivery air back. Thus when these two anti-pressures totaling 12cm H₂O reach the back of my throat, it becomes natural to rather escape sideways through my mouth, if possible, than to continue along the inside of the nose to the outside of my nostrils. In my case, when I increase the delivery pressure to 6cm H₂O, the return pressure will probably have to increase to 8 or 9cm H₂O, totaling 14cm H₂O, and my natural resistance in my mouth is too low to resist and mouth breathing commences.
My guess is that most users may develop some kind of mouth breathing (leakage) depending on the pressure setting. ( Imagine if you had a delivery pressure of 10cm H₂O – with a return pressure of at least 12cm H₂O – a total of 22cm H₂O!). The CPAP machines, without exception, obviously only record a leakage (over and above the normal air escape through the mask vents) and it usually tends to be described as 'mask leakage'. This through-the-mouth escape of air into the surrounding atmosphere will cause a drop in the pressure in the airways, and all machines will respond with an increase in air volume delivery at a higher pressure to compensate – probably now exaggerating the air escape through the mouth! Not even mentioning that the higher air volume at a higher pressure is being forced through your nose – heaven forbid you have one nostril blocked! This differs markedly from a mask leakage, where the pressure in the airways remain relatively the same as the leakage is now still in the delivery system before it enters the body. To this mask leakage the machines will also respond the same, but the increased pressure and volume is not transferred to your airways but escapes through the mask leakage.
CPAP Auto, C-Flex technology and Bi-PAP machines address this high expiration pressure necessary to exhale by sensing the start of expiration and then dropping the delivery pressure by 20 – 30% so as to make exhaling (expiration) a little easier. They do succeed in making breathing easier, especially if you should need a high delivery pressure. But it becomes more difficult for these machines to predict the start of expiration when a major leak is present. No machine as yet has the capability to differentiate the position of an unintentional leak as opposed to the intentional leak provided by the vents in the mask. Therefore, even with these more expensive machines, the problem of mouth 'leaks' or mouth breathing is still present.
This drop in pressure and delivery during mouth breathing cancels most of the advantages of 'Continuous Positive Airway Pressure' (CPAP) and that appears to be the cause of my experience of not getting the expected benefits of the CPAP. The moment I switched to a full face mask or a Hybrid mask delivering positive air through my nose and covering my mouth, the problem disappeared and I have never felt better at waking in the morning. Mouth leakage now does not occur, as the pressure inside the airways, throat and mouth is the same as outside of the mouth inside the mask.
There is some discomfort and some skin side-effects as well as possible dangers ascribed to taping your mouth with paper tape or similar to prevent mouth breathing. Wearing a chin strap gives conflicting results, as most of them either slip off during sleep or may pull the lower jaw backwards, increasing the chances of apnee episodes. Various snoring devices to pull the lower jaw forward and/or seal the mouth and pull the tongue forward is not only uncomfortable, but has not been assessed as successful in preventing mouth breathing during CPAP usage.
I do realize and agree about the common reasons for not liking a full face mask, i.e. feeling hot, claustrophobic, condensation in the mask, pressure on the bridge of the nose, visible pressure marks the next morning, cannot speak to your partner, and the feeling of something big and heavy sealing you off from the outside world. But I imagine you have two choices if you want to make this CPAP experience really successful: get used to a full face mask (use a preferably bigger mask rather than smaller) – it takes easily a month, but the result is 1,000 times worth it, or try a hybrid mask where the mask does not cover the nose, no claustrophobia, and it uses nasal pillows combined with covering your mouth. It does feel a lot more comfortable with the same end result.
Therefore it appears that it is a fallacy to believe a technician or professional can really tell you how you actually feel in the morning when you wake – and he/she cannot give you a better idea of what works and what not than yourself. Trust your own feelings and intuition and take responsibility for improving your own wellbeing by responding and demanding from them the correct equipment needed as determined by your personal experience. You should also be able to adjust the delivery pressure of your machine yourself to control your own health care delivery if you so choose.
I truly thank you for the time you have taken answering so thoroughly. Equipment selection is burdened by my Sleep Doc, who is the Doc from h-ll. First interview he called me mentally ill, then threatened to take my license away if I wasn't able to prove compliance. I cannot get a bipap or autopap machine under Ontario Canada regulation, according to him. He doesn't even believe in heated hoses. Causes me great stress. I MUST take control of my health. First task: new sleep doc, and I've been working on that.

Finally, I am sure that we don't have health care anymore; we have health management. Meanwhile our medical costs are going through the roof.

Thank you to everyone who has posted.

Follow Up: I have tried 6 masks, bringing 4 home. Yesterday I brought home a ResMed Mirage Ultra home. I slept right through the night! Andthat is a miracle. Today I found the clinician handbook for my S8 Elite II; They were afraid I might hurt myself, and kept it when the machine was delivered.
One step at a time...
DaveL
Toronto

DaveL
Cranky Old Hoser
Compliant for 18 years
04-24-2013 09:45 PM
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DaveL Offline

Members

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr 2013

Machine: S9 Elite cpap with EPR
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage FX and Quattro fx
Humidifier: ResMed H5i
CPAP Pressure: 11
CPAP Software: Not using software

Other Comments: Compliant for 15 years...cranky old Hoser!

Sex: Male
Location: Canada....Hazeltown

Post: #9
RE: New Quattro FX FFM user--Questions
on again/off again

Do you remove your full face mask if you have to go to the bathroom?

I did last night, and got my ultra mirage on wrong. It moved enough it didn't cover my mouth.

Is there a quick-disconnect for the hose?

Thanks in Dvanced!

DaveL

DaveL
Cranky Old Hoser
Compliant for 18 years
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2013 08:58 PM by DaveL.)
04-28-2013 08:57 PM
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DaveL Offline

Members

Posts: 15
Joined: Apr 2013

Machine: S9 Elite cpap with EPR
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage FX and Quattro fx
Humidifier: ResMed H5i
CPAP Pressure: 11
CPAP Software: Not using software

Other Comments: Compliant for 15 years...cranky old Hoser!

Sex: Male
Location: Canada....Hazeltown

Post: #10
RE: New Quattro FX FFM user--Questions
Rough night last night with the Ultra Mirage.

Maybe a nasal mask and pap cap isn't so bad

DaveL
Cranky Old Hoser
Compliant for 18 years
05-01-2013 08:35 PM
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