New Resmed App

[Walla Walla]

that's good scoop srlevine1.  but no one said the apps are a substitute for or even closely approximate polysomnography.  in fact, the apps I've seen go to some pains to disclaim any medical use and describe in some detail the limitations of their methods.  rather than the cynical view that we poor ignorant patients or consumers might be duped into self diagnosing, I think the greater probablility is that people might be more likely to seek medical attention after using a good sleep app.

Or they may perceive a problem that doesn't exist there by wasting their money and time. Also keeping the Doctor from people who really need to be seen.

[sheepless]

isn't this forum all about patient empowerment? give us a little credit

[Walla Walla]

isn't this forum all about patient empowerment?  give us a little credit

Data from Cpap's have been certified for medical use. So I do give credit for advice on that. Fitbit or phone apps are not certified for medical use. So credit for those not so much.

[sheepless]

again: no one said these apps are a substitute for anything. you're raising a straw man. I wasn't talking about certifications or apps or machines. I was talking about walking the talk of empowerment. give us credit, I said. give us credit for striving to make our own individual choices about our own health. these apps serve a purpose. they don't presume to have a medical use. who are you (not
you personally WW, I mean anybody) to limit my choices under the assumption I'm not smart enough to read the instructions and disclaimers? do we really need that kind of intrusive protection?

[Walla Walla]

again: no one said these apps are a substitute for anything.  you're raising a straw man.  I wasn't talking about certifications or apps or machines.  I was talking about walking the talk of empowerment.  give us credit, I said.  give us credit for striving to make our own individual choices about our own health.  these apps serve a purpose.  they don't presume to have a medical use.  who are you (not
you personally WW, I mean anybody) to limit my choices under the assumption I'm not smart enough to read the instructions and disclaimers?  do we really need that kind of intrusive protection?

 I don't think I ever mentioned restricting any one's right to using a fitbit or phone app. I have a Fitbit Blaze that I can't use due to the way the probe digs into my wrist. It also causes a rash. But the times I tried it the sleep monitor it didn't appear to be that accurate. But I don't think people should be banned from buying this amusing little toy.

Now do I assume your not smart enough to read instructions and disclaimers? No. Do I believe there are people out there who don't read instructions and disclaimers? Definitely!
Someone once posted here the average IQ was 100. Which would mean half the people have an IQ under a 100. I may be one of those under a 100.

[mesenteria]

I believe that, as a person with average intelligence who has done so, the 'average' user of fitness apps and wearable tech will soon realize that these things are gimmicks and not to have any stock placed in them whatsoever.  Even I, a dullard of your typical kind who routinely misses details, can see that my Samsung Gear with S Health routinely says I only got 2.4 hours of sleep last night when I know full well it was closer to 5.5 or 6.  It seems to want to call my turn-over an end to my sleep, and then begins to record a new session.  Also, it only measures "deep" sleep and not REM.  I'm guessing that the darker shaded deep sleep block is an estimate based on duration of immobility.

Even so, I try to keep an open mind.  I know I don't know everything, and that new techniques are being devised regularly.  Using pressure wave feedback to measure human behaviours seems plausible.  I would want, though, a fairly structured comparative assessment between polysomnography results and those derived from this app at the same time.  With an efficacy approaching 90%, I could see such an app having more 'face validity' (for me) and more reliability.  That is what I would like to issue to the masses who might be less of a critical thinker, more distracted, more desperate, less informed, or less well managed in terms of health care.  We don't want people making important decisions based on an efficacy less than about 90%.

[mesenteria]

I believe that, as a person with average intelligence who has done so, the 'average' user of fitness apps and wearable tech will soon realize that these things are gimmicks and not to have any stock placed in them whatsoever.  Even I, a dullard of your typical kind who routinely misses details, can see that my Samsung Gear with S Health routinely says I only got 2.4 hours of sleep last night when I know full well it was closer to 5.5 or 6.  It seems to want to call my turn-over an end to my sleep, and then begins to record a new session.  Also, it only measures "deep" sleep and not REM.  I'm guessing that deep sleep block is an estimate based on duration of immobility.

Even so, I try to keep an open mind.  I know I don't know everything, and that new techniques are being devised regularly.  Using pressure wave feedback to measure human behaviours seems plausible.  I would want, though, a fairly structured comparative assessment between polysomnography results and those derived from this app at the same time.  With an efficacy approaching 90%, I could see such an app having more 'face validity' (for me) and more reliability.  That is what I would like to issue to the masses who might be less of a critical thinker, more distracted, more desperate, less informed, or less well managed in terms of health care.  We don't want people making important decisions based on an efficacy less than about 90%.

[sheepless]

my last comment on this.

WW, don't you think the sleep med community thinks about the apnea board in much the same terms you use to dismiss sleep apps? even our expensive pap machines are no substitute for polysomnography. yet, forum members are routinely advised based on these less accurate metrics.

I'm not saying apps are as accurate as our machines. they're not. all I'm saying is you're comparing apples and oranges. the point that these apps aren't as accurate as a polysomnography is not in contention. sleep apps are not intended to be a substitute for or to serve a medical purpose. no one should expect 90% as accurate as polysomnography. no one should expect a diagnosis from a sleep app. that's not their purpose or claim.

it is specious to dis the apps, and by implication the app users, because the apps don't live up to a standard they were never designed for. to pick an analogy out of the blue: it's like warning against using a butter knife because it isn't as sharp as a butcher's knife. obviously we don't use a butter knife when we need a sharp one, but the butter knife does have perfectly legitimate uses.

[Walla Walla]

my last comment on this.

WW, don't you think the sleep med community thinks about the apnea board in much the same terms you use to dismiss sleep apps?  even our expensive pap machines are no substitute for polysomnography.  yet, forum members are routinely advised based on these less accurate metrics.

I'm not saying apps are as accurate as our machines.  they're not.  all I'm saying is you're comparing apples and oranges.  the point that these apps aren't as accurate as a polysomnography is not in contention.  sleep apps are not intended to be a substitute for or to serve a medical purpose.  no one should expect 90% as accurate as polysomnography.  no one should expect a diagnosis from a sleep app.  that's not their purpose or claim.  

it is specious to dis the apps, and by implication the app users, because the apps don't live up to a standard they were never designed for.  to pick an analogy out of the blue: it's like warning against using a butter knife because it isn't as sharp as a butcher's knife.  obviously we don't use a butter knife when we need a sharp one, but the butter knife does have perfectly legitimate uses.

Thank you for making that your last comment. Now all is right within the universe.

[ShaunBlake]

Thank you for making that your last comment. Now all is right within the universe.

 

Oh, if only that were so!  However, I suspect that the 'rightness' has already been cloaked and slipped through a worm hole.

Oh, and before I depart (no, I'm not promising that I will ever have any 'last word' on any subject!), shame on you for being suspected of dismissing sleep apps!