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New Resmed App
#31
RE: New Resmed App
After going back and reading all the posts on the topic of SleepScore, it seems to me some us are pissing in the wind when we scoff at technology. I am sure at one time many were saying the same thing about Sleepyhead software. Personally I have more confidence in a company like Resmed, who are pioneers in the sleep study industry. One of the abilities SleepScore has, is tracking when I wake up and fall back to sleep. Is it accurate? Maybe, maybe not, but it matched perfectly with the time I woke, for a nature call on Sleepyhead. Since SleepScore showed I was awake for 40 minutes, it proved the Oa's and hypopneas truly didn't happen as my graph showed, since I was awake.

Is there anything wrong with using different apps to fine tune my therapy? Certainly not if it improves my health and my attitude. One thing I can unequivocally say is if it wasn't for Sleepyhead and its dedicated members, I would have given up on my therapy. How many others already gave up on therapy because they weren't aware of the options available to them? How many have or will die? Most of us should be smart enough to know good technology from bad. 

The bottom line is simply this. If the medical profession, doctor's, sleep doctors and DME's would be more thorough in doing their job, maybe we wouldn't need to be looking into all this technology. If I had to depend on the sleep doctor or DME's I have had the past 15 months, my wife would be placing flowers on my grave. Instead, she will just have to figure out a way to put up  with me another 10-15 years.
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#32
RE: New Resmed App
I am hoping to have an opportunity to compare an app on my Apple Watch (AutoSleep) to information obtained from a PSG. I have been using the app for several months now and get consistent results regarding the length and quality of my sleep - which is poor. I had my wife wear the watch one night and it showed her as sleeping pretty much continuously through the night. For me, it will generally show about 3 hours of sleep per night with around 30 minutes of deep sleep.

If you are not familiar with the Apple Watch, it also provides encouragement to get up and move sending you a reminder to get up each hour if stationary and tracks your compliance via a ring that advances with each hour's movement for a recommended 12 hours of having movement. My watch is showing that I have meet that requirement usually for five hours overnight, while sleeping.
I don't think I sleep walk....

I hope to be able to wear my watch during the upcoming PSG and compare the information from each source. Should be an interesting comparison.
When is this “old enough to know better” supposed to kick in?
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#33
RE: New Resmed App
(07-07-2018, 09:28 PM)Stom Wrote: I think of pseudo-science as things which are utter nonsense, such as dowsing or detecting and manipulating human "energy fields" with your hands (aka reiki).

Well, no. "Pseudo science" *masquerades* as science, and generally uses "scientific" sounding language to lure in the gullible, often containing some tiny bit of actual science used in a way to mislead, such as "quantum" which is actual science but does not mean what they use it to mean. Or what most people think it means.

I would not class any of your list as "pseudo science" except perhaps the last, which at least uses a "sciency" kind of word.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Part cow since February 2018.

Trust your mind less and your brain more.


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#34
RE: New Resmed App
(07-08-2018, 08:10 AM)michael9346 Wrote: After going back and reading all the posts on the topic of SleepScore, it seems to me some us are pissing in the wind when we scoff at technology.

No one in this thread has "scoffed at technology" so far as I can see, and I wonder how you got that impression.  Technology can be misused and abused and that, so far as I can see, is what some people here are objecting to.  I agree with the objectors since the "science" here seems extremely shaky, whereas the actual technology no doubt works.  Is this "app" approved to the standards that durable medical equipment such as CPAP machines are held to?  Count me among the doubters!

But just because the actual tech may work does not mean the science is sound!

I would be the last one to object to technology since it was surgical and medical technology that gave me my new heart valve and coronary arteries, and kept me alive during the procedure.

It ain't technology I worry about, but misused technology, that later of which unfortunately abounds.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Part cow since February 2018.

Trust your mind less and your brain more.


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#35
RE: New Resmed App
(07-08-2018, 10:47 AM)eseedhouse Wrote: I would not class any of your list as "pseudo science" except perhaps the last, which at least uses a "sciency" kind of word.

I can where you are coming from. I think of dowsing and Rekei as examples of pseudo science because of how they are defended, using sciency stuff. I could have used N-Rays as a classic example of pseudo science that we could probably all agree on, but that is probably a bit obscure for those not up on their history of pseudo science. :-)

I expect that the SleepScore Max is pretty crude in its motion sensing, but for those people who's sleep patterns predictably correlate with restless movement, it seems a viable if imperfect metric and not pseudoscientific in my book. Now if the SleepScore Max used your astrology chart to measure your sleep, well, that would be a different matter. :-)
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#36
RE: New Resmed App
(07-08-2018, 11:06 AM)Stom Wrote: I could have used N-Rays as a classic example of pseudo science that we could probably all agree on

Well, no. N Rays were not pseudo science, but rather actual science. Bad science that turned out to be wrong, but still science - it was based on observations by a real scientist in his field of expertise that turned out not to be confirmed and thus had to be rejected.

These days such an observation would be laughed at because we understand the nature of radiation much better, but this was a long time ago.

Orgones would be a much better example, in my (not so) humble opinion.

But I might be wrong.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Part cow since February 2018.

Trust your mind less and your brain more.


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#37
RE: New Resmed App
(07-08-2018, 11:50 AM)eseedhouse Wrote:
(07-08-2018, 11:06 AM)Stom Wrote: I could have used N-Rays as a classic example of pseudo science that we could probably all agree on
Well, no.  N Rays were not pseudo science, but rather actual science.  Bad science that turned out to be wrong, but still science - it was based on observations by a real scientist in his field of expertise that turned out not to be confirmed and thus had to be rejected.

Clearly the penumbra between science and pseudo science is a bit broad :-)

But I would add that "actual scientists" do sometimes go down the path to the Dark Side in to pseudo science, as they trust their observations and conclusions over those of the consensus (a tricky path, because new legitimate findings can come out of the ashes of consensus, but not as often as new findings turn out to be just plain wrong). Jacques Benveniste comes to mind, from legit researcher to homopathy and then some advocate. One can be an actual scientist and still be practicing pseudo science.

Speaking of pseudo science and people falling to the dark side, and also bringing the discussion back to the SleepScore app and SleepScore Max product, I do have to say that the partnership with Dr. Oz does detract from the credibility of the entire project. Dr. Oz is a legit cardiothoracic surgeon, but who has since gone on to champion utter nonsense such as "human energy manipulation" (reiki) in the surgical suite and recovery process. So, were it not for ResMed providing some data on correlations, I would assume that the app was complete nonsense until proven otherwise.
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#38
RE: New Resmed App
(07-08-2018, 08:10 AM)michael9346 Wrote: After going back and reading all the posts on the topic of SleepScore, it seems to me some us are pissing in the wind when we scoff at technology. I am sure at one time many were saying the same thing about Sleepyhead software. Personally I have more confidence in a company like Resmed, who are pioneers in the sleep study industry. 

There is a vast difference between reporting and displaying data created by a device (e.g. Sleepyhead) and creating the data itself. While ResMed has a great reputation as one of the pioneers in the sleep industry, that does not preclude the development of an occasional less than optimum product, service, or solution. 

Here is the original press release: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/sleepscor...00336.html (November 2017).

One huge red flag, at least for me, is that SleepScore is partly owned and lists Dr. Mehmet Oz as one of the company's sleep experts. [https://www.sleepscore.com/the-science-2]  Dr. Oz, Oprah's go-to guy, appears to have a checkered history with the FTC when it comes to medical claims. [https://www.resmed.com/us/en/news-and-information/news-releases/2017/dr-oz-resmed-launch-sleepscore-labs.html]

The second red flag is that ResMed introduced the S+ Sleep Sensor as the "world’s first non-contact sleep sensor" and that wasn't exactly a big hit -- and now appears to be an "abandoned product." (Read some of the Amazon user reviews). [https://www.resmed.com/us/en/consumer/s-plus.html] 
\
This current device uses much the same ResMed technology and appears to be an extension of the original S+ device. You can find a nice review at https://www.medgadget.com/2017/12/sleeps...eview.html

Remember, there were a number of smart, well-credentialed people behind the Theranos (the blood testing company) -- not that SleepScore is even remotely in that category. 

The key is to be vigilant and to test your own experience against the claims being made. It is not scoffing when you follow the advice of the Better Business Bureau: "Investigate Before You Invest." But the app has beautiful graphics and I do not discount the benefits of paying closer attention to your sleep behavior.
"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
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#39
RE: New Resmed App
(07-08-2018, 02:57 PM)srlevine1 Wrote: Remember, there were a number of smart, well-credentialed people behind the Theranos (the blood testing company) -- not that SleepScore is even remotely in that category. 

I'm not a fan of Dr. Oz being involved, but the SleepScan Max is utterly plausible using known motion detection technology and known (and, yes, imperfect) correlations between restless movement and sleep states, whereas Theranos promised revolutionary multi-diagnonsis, single drop blood testing without revealing the secret technology that was supposed to enable the product to be possible. Theranos qualifies as pseudo-science in my book, and also just outright fraud. There was no there there.

(Also, I looked at some of those same Amazon reviews of the S+. Abandoning that product after only a year and a half (with new units still being sold on Amazon as of right now) is a real blankety blank move on the part of ResMed since the device apparently can't work in a local only mode and requires access to ResMed servers to continue functioning - this is one of the big issues with devices and content locked to proprietary cloud services. That behavior does not inspire confidence in investing in their SleepScan Max product as a long term solution for sleep tracking.)
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#40
RE: New Resmed App
Having had two lab based sleep studies, I seriously doubt their validity versus sleeping at home with no wires or tubes attached and no one leering at me through a camera.
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