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New to me, ASV, Initial Questions
#51
RE: New to me, ASV, Initial Questions
I apologize in advance for the novel, but details may be needed to fully appreciate my situation as regards the need for continued non medical help and support regarding my unique sleep and breathing issues.

Continuing ASVAuto Mode,,   starting MIN EPAP 5 MAX EPAP 15   MIN PS 3 MAX PS 15 then moving EPAP MIN to 6 then 7 now 7.4 and last nights AHI at 3.71 with 25 Hypopneas and 10 UA's. The UA's went down some after wearing the Soft Collar. and I am more consistently at or below 5 AHI.  We have clearly made progress, but I suspect I must now introduce other aspects of my hampered respiratory situation so you technical wizards can provide what the sleep doc system has never acknowledged beyond mild to moderate sleep Apnea of primarily an obstructive nature. 

I was excited to get this Aircurve ASV machine to try vs the Airsense 10 that preceded it very strongly sensing that I am dealing with "Mixed" or "Complex Apnea" I'd like your deeper considerations in light of this how that I might pursue a broader and deeper understanding of aspects of the graphs such as Flow Limitations, so I can continue to improve my life further. as regards how all the components might be working together and how this might be reflected in closeups of my sleep data.

I Had an emergency tracheotomy put in at age 2 due to a glue ingestion incident that caused Bilateral Vocal Fold Paresis. My ENT observed me over an 8 year period hoping to see flickers of Vocal Cord movement enough to breathe on my own, and at age 10, the tube was removed and then surgically repaired. I've lived with a fixed airway all my life and my current ENT says "one moves a little and the other a bit more" but as a whole they operate at a 5% of normal level. My last sleep DR. had a chip on his shoulder due to my confidence on my history and flatly told me "My Vocal cords are not paralyzed because I can say EEEEEE". I was referred to him by the ENT who regularly scopes my cords. He said several other non facts that day and I have never seen a "sleep specialist" since. I learned how to set my settings from this group 11 years ago.

I appeared to sleep well as a child but now that I think of it, I was the first to conk out hard as soon as it got dark, and the first to wake up in the family. I would often wake the family with my gasping in the night and of course couldn't run without difficulty At 21, I visited my dutiful ENT and he strongly advised I try an experimental surgery that wires a nerve from a neck muscle to the cords and I might learn to trigger activate it to open the cords wider, but after I woke up the surgeon said my cords "were too rigid" for this to have worked in my case.  In my 30's I saw an ENT who did an Arytnoidectomy which was to open up some space via laser on the Arytnoids which is a part of the Vocal cords. At the time it didn't seem to allow me to feel much difference and I did trade the ability to yell with any volume for the effort, however later it did seem to allow me to breathe through that small increased space when I had laryngitis as not much air passes through passed the cords.

After a rollover auto accident 25 years ago I stopped being able to go or remain asleep and have been working on that ever since. I take a volly of mostly non medicines to get to sleep and to stay there as long as possible. The spinal cord was injured in a way that there is now a hole or cavity the runs nearly the whole length INSIDE and is filled with increasing cerebro spinal fluid with a one way (in) valve and has been slowly crushing my cord ever since.

The good news,, it happens slowly and symmetrically so I have learned self treatments to stay upright, talk, and even sleep, but I'm "pretty sure" I have centrals, obstructives, periodic breathing, shallow breathing, and a slow respiration rate of 10. It was 4 rr and thready until I took myself off the "sleep med" and substituted to something else. Interesting thing is,,,, the pulmonologist who regularly monitored me NEVER considered that my slow thready RR could have been the medicine commonly known to "decrease respiration drive".


I'll include my latest sleep graph which shows a 3.71 AHI  25 hypopneas  and 10 Unclassified Apneas with settings of    EPAP MIN 7.4  EPAP MAX  15   PS MIN 2   PS MAX  15   and would be glad to provide closeups of desired sections of specific graphs and time periods that we might see something no Dr or DME will acknowledge  that might lead me further in a direction that helps me to sleep and breathe better based on a perspective utilizing any of the saga details above as far as speculation on my likely real world physicality and how it affects me and what we can do about it. For instance, since my vocal cords are always restricted how does the machine objectively see this if at all in the form of data esp as it needs a baseline to compare to for a nights sleep? Pre auto accident I breathed at a normal rate and with a normal drive for respiration in and out. I think I love this ASV machine because I feel good when in sync with it as I feel it increasing my inspirations. That in itself is very calming which leaves me more receptive to sleep.


As I do have diffuse though not complete paralysis, typing is slow so know I am doing my best to respond.


   
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#52
RE: New to me, ASV, Initial Questions
The additional background really helps, and glad you found out relatively early that sleep specialists are mostly quacks that need to be kept away from patients. What I don't know from your description of many issues, is whether this impairment is similar to the restrictive thoracic or neuromuscular dysfunctions that contraindicate ASV in favor of ST-A with iVAPS. In reality, the Resmed guidance does not get into the issues you have described for any therapy, but the alternative to ASV would be iVAPS. The differences are well covered in this reference https://document.resmed.com/en-us/docume...er_eng.pdf

I assume since you're asking the question, you want to know whether there is a therapy more appropriate to your needs, and I can't answer that, except to say the answer lies in trial and error. Trial and error is the foundation of titration and positive air pressure therapy efficacy from CPAP through advanced ventilation, and what I'm saying is you have to try something to know whether or not it works or is an improvement. iVAPS therapy reacts slower and targets alveolar vent rate. It has fixed, targets that can be set for respiration rate and respiratory volume and lots of other parameters. The Resmed ASV is unique in that it effectively treats central and complex apnea without any set targets. The ventilation and respiration rates are based on a 90 second moving window of spontaneous respiration from the user, and if those slowly diminish or are not clearly interpreted by the ASV algorithm, it can become deficient (queue SarcasticDave94). The question I have, and you might have is whether iVAPS is a more appropriate therapeutic course to take given your complex injury and surgical history. If you can find a doctor that understands the science (or lack of sleep-doctorism) behind these devices, a trial on iVAPS could yield a lot of useful information with the fall-back being to continue ASV. The challenge is to identify a respiration rate and volume that should be targeted, then letting the machine do its thing. My gut says iVAPS is more appropriate, but I have no professional standing to prescribe it.
Sleeprider
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com

____________________________________________
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#53
RE: New to me, ASV, Initial Questions
Howdy.

If paralysis is involved and/or failure of ASV, I'd go with iVAPS. You need a sincere discussion with the doc. Take your notebook with symptoms and complaints about ASV failure. And remind about the paralysis aspect. AVAPS is a mode within NIV ventilators, iVAPS is the ResMed flavor of it. iVAPS can be in the PAP with backup rate with script code identical to ASV, E0471 in a machine called ST-A. Or ventilators called Stellar 100 or 150 and Astral 100 or 150. These have a different script code E0466. Either AVAPS or iVAPS is a Mode within these machines.

AVAPS/iVAPS has a backup rate similar to ASV, but this has more pressure that can not just initiate a breath but begin a breath. The ST-A has Max IPAP at 30, Stellar and Astral I think both are capped at IPAP max 50.
INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEBSITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#54
RE: New to me, ASV, Initial Questions
Dave and SleepRider,

Several factors arrived at once (including the time change) and set me off course for some weeks regarding sleep and pain and I have things back to my "zero point" once again.

In the mean time I spent many hours awake in the night while tasking myself with the productive measure of observing my breathing as long as I was awake anyway, and thinking about the positives of obtaining the IVAPS considerations. (Resmed Aircurve 10 ST-A versus my trusty Aircurve 10 ASV which has moved me substantially forward as I breathe at night)


1. I "gasp" (sudden spontaneous deep inhalation with some sound) which may or may not be associated with a resulting, detected apnea. This occurs
seemingly out of the blue and I'd guess maybe 3 to 4 times in 4 hour period. Having has the Tracheotomy age 2 to 10 I have always done these gasps as long as I can remember. It makes sense as the Good ENT was waiting all those years for the glimmer of an  airway wide enough to remove it and in a sense that in itself was like Sleep Obstruction and Apneas decades before they got medical attention like now.

2. Alternatively I also see I present with "reverse gasps" for lack of a more knowledgeable phrase. During an exhalation breath my airway "intentionally obstructs" for a single breath periodically, whereby I feel this strangely satisfying vacuum affect in lungs as though I "need it to reset" is the only way I can say it. I feel I have this long term too just always thought it was normal due to the Tracheotomy and vocal cord paralysis. at a young age

3. My respiration rate of mostly 10 which I know is too low for me based on experiences over the years, feels too low and I feel an almost constant desire to have each inhalation last perhaps 30% longer to feel "satisfied". I experimented by increasing my rate and noticing the machine following and I liking it, then it returns to the artificially low RR ,,a result of a benzo I was talked into,,, paradoxically for "improved sleep". I suspect 15 would be a nice number to work toward with the ST-A's help with a spontaneous machine induced extra breath and or consistent rate bump. The ASV doesn't have a way to know this isn't my normal rate which it patterns after.

4. My breaths are shallow. My breath rate is irregular and I can feel I need it managed for me.

5. I sense ,strongly, that my being able to edit or design work arounds for these breathing deficits (introduced by vocal cord paralysis, medication, whiplash injury, and "other") would place me closer to "healthy/normal" breathing at night in a manner akin to the ASV compared to the 4 years prior on the Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset.

I'd like to move forward toward purchase of the ST-A and as was suggested, have a great ASV ready for backup. The ASV was a gift without cost, so my DR. would be writing a script for this new machine based on "failure" of the Airsense 10 Auto and or "changed" medical necessity for it based on my unique history and associated aspects which require it. My Dr. isn't a sleep specialist, but has always helped me with appropriate documentation where he could not with specific treatment for which there often isn't any.

I do not use traditional "insurance"  for certain costs such as this due to the accident, but costs are paid on a Medicare coding. Sometimes I can self purchase if it is related enough and be reimbursed later, which I am considering for this situation which I now consider absolute need.

Any advise on what specifically might be needed to be included script wise, to give this a go with an online DME. I saw one for 3k by chance today. Would have to be new for any potential for reimbursement.

Reading the information SleepRider provided this seems the logical next step esp since I am aging which comes further change that need to be adjust for as it occurs. Having this machine now would allow me to ride with the changes.

Your thoughts and advice? Do you two see things similarly?  

Jim

BTW  Though I am still doing the collar and now testing pillows for "positional" and my AHI moves up to 6 now with increases in Hypopneas and UA's both despite near full titration mode with the ASVAuto.

This also makes me think,,   "I'm not quite there" but could be.
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#55
RE: New to me, ASV, Initial Questions
In a way, I'd think an ST-A and iVAPS may be more applicable to your medical needs. Of course it depends on what doc thinks as well. I think a difference not yet mentioned between ST-A and ASV is the ASV responds faster than the ST-A. And I'm thinking ST-A may have Auto EPAP and if so can do the same EPAP and PS ranges ASV does but slower. You just sound more like an AVAPS ventilator type of need that ST-A brings. But that's only me talking. Include serious thought into whatever direction you take.

And my ASV background is that it worked wonders for my CA but now things are off kilter due to no time controls.
INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEBSITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#56
RE: New to me, ASV, Initial Questions
Without a doubt the Resmed ASV has been beneficial be beyond anything you had in the past, but it is limited in that it uses an algorithm optimized for people with mostly normal respiration that need a backup rate to offset complex or central apnea. It is not a suitable ventilator as we can't manually set a minimum vent rate or volume. That is the specialty of the ST-A.
Sleeprider
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com

____________________________________________
Download OSCAR Software
Soft Cervical Collar
Optimizing Therapy
Organize your OSCAR Charts
Attaching Files
Mask Primer
How To Deal With Equipment Supplier


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#57
RE: New to me, ASV, Initial Questions
I attached a couple Screen Captures from SleepRider's Resmed Reference Guide he'd linked previous to highlight the limitations of ASV vs iVaps.
ASV acknowledges it may "under treat" those with Neuromuscular situations, and the ST-A appears specifically designed for that as well as other conditions where "respiratory insufficiency" needs to be taken into consideration and manually adjusted for and or expected to change.

You both have mentioned iVaps being "slower" and I'm interested to know more about this and whether either of you has done a trial to compare with the Breath by Breath feeling of the ASV. I do love the synchrony of the ASA, but I'm also now more aware of what is lacking as well and the clear need to adjust for it for more healthy breathing during sleep.

How strict is the wait 5 year for a new machine Medicare guideline?


   



   
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#58
RE: New to me, ASV, Initial Questions
Getting a new machine within 5 years can be accomplished when the medical diagnosis changes and requires a different machine. I've had the ASV since 2017, but I've not yet gotten my ST-A. So unfortunately, I can't say one feels different than the other. Slower response is probably intentional, as it's not treating Centrals specifically. That's my guess but maybe a bit slower and steady is better to treat respiratory disease needs.
INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEBSITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#59
RE: New to me, ASV, Initial Questions
Understood,, glad to know that it can be done,,,,and I agree, while the ASV response works very fluidly and quick, it doesn't supersede the many other consideration we may need beyond that, which it lacks.

It sounds like your approval is pending on documentations which you have mentioned to me a couple times to acquire.

I don't have all that, but I do have a Doc who will attest to the medical necessity due to "respiratory necessity I think. When it comes to sleep docs and their way of operating, I've stayed as far away from them as I could and still be partially in the game for my needs.
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#60
RE: New to me, ASV, Initial Questions
Yep it should help out in attaining your ST-A. A key difference maybe not mentioned yet is the ST-A has the timing control set to help with inhale and exhale times, and the trigger and cycle into and out of inhale.

Back to getting your ST-A, make certain the doc knows how you feel, rested or not, comfortable or not, and so on.
INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEBSITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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