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[News] RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
(06-26-2021, 05:42 PM)b.e.wilson Wrote: I'm still using my Philips machine. What is scary to a lawyer is normal everyday risk for everyone else. Low humidity, good AC system, no hint of degradation or gasses in my 4.5-years-old machine.

As a chemist, the presence of carcinogenic VOCs and other offgassing chemicals above permissable exposure levels doesn't concern you?  Huh "No hint of ... gasses" -- you can't see or smell these even at hazardous levels. How are you sure?

There's no way on god's green earth that Philips would've recalled almost every machine they've made for more than a decade, and risk the negative PR and financial fallout, if this were not pretty serious.

As for the foam degradation, there are already a handful of reports across other forums and groups from people who disassembled their Dreamstations to find that the sound abatement foam had decomposed into a sticky, oily mess. I personally asked one of them if they'd ever used an ozone cleaner and they said no.

For example:
[Image: 8CBMeWg.jpeg]
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
^^^ That's absolutely horrific.  

And Philips will (eventually) ask us to return our machines to be "cleaned" and "repaired"; therefore permanently erasing all the evidence to our individual exposures.  

Each affected individual deserves to know the degree to which they themselves
have been inhaling potentially long-term cancer-causing particles
from the faulty foam and its placement.

This is making me question whether I should indeed return my machine to be "cleaned" and "repaired".  If I do so, I'll never really know the actual amount of consumption I've had from those foam particles.

It's impossible to believe that Philips never saw degrading foam particles
from its machines during end-user warranty claims.
They absolutely must have known about it for several years,
but simply refurbished or destroyed those returned machines.

Perhaps it would be prudent to leave our recalled systems in their current state, only to be freshly opened along with a lawyer while being videoed.  All recalled Philips end-users are impacted to some degree, with some being more affected that others (based on the above photos).  They need to know which category they are in.

Any class-action law firm should insist that end-users NOT return their machines to Philips, but either be compensated or provided with a new machine, so they can keep their recalled machine as evidence of the degree that they may be impacted by the Philips faulty units.
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
." I personally asked one of them if they'd ever used an ozone cleaner and they said no."

Hmmm....some here have reported that ozone cleaners (so clean) caused their masks and tubes to discolor. I used So clean for 6 or 7 years. That never happened to me.
I still use Respify for my mask and hose and tank. No discoloration, no degradation.

I've read on this forum hard negative conclusions about ozone cleaners based (at best) on personal anecdote (or animus from those who never used such cleaners, but are still certain.) Other personal anecdotes, like mine, tell a different story.

The above post suggests that Phillips foam decomposes without ozone cleaners being involved. People have concluded that ozone accelerates degradation. Possibly. "They" say it does. How do we know? the crowd says a lot of things on the internet that aren't true. it's one of the dangers of the internet.

It could certainly be true that ozone accelerates degradation of foam and even other components! It makes sense. Maybe litigation will finally answer that question. In the meantime, I think it's an open question. My guess is that Phillip is going to point the finger. They have a vested interest in it being true.
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
I very much agree. Also, I just want to emphasize one thing: if you read carefully and closely in the Philips provider-focused doc I linked a few posts back, it breaks down the risks into two separate categories:
  • Foam degradation risks (particles and specific gasses resulting from that)
  • Toxic and/or carcinogenic VOC offgassing
The second part -- the toxic & carcinogenic VOCs -- are independent of the foam breakdown. The document says: "During initial or subsequent operation of the device, a patient may be exposed to VOCs..." That means no matter how old your machine, risk #2, and maybe the most serious, exists.

I don't want to scare anyone, but people should be taking this seriously. Philips themselves stated that people should discontinue using any of these devices unless it's a life-critical ventilator (source):
"For patients using BiLevel PAP and CPAP devices: 
  •  Discontinue use of your device and work with your physician or Durable Medical Equipment (DME) provider to determine the most appropriate options for continued treatment. "
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
(06-26-2021, 07:03 PM)hegel Wrote: ." I personally asked one of them if they'd ever used an ozone cleaner and they said no."

Hmmm....some here have reported that ozone cleaners (so clean) caused their masks and tubes to discolor. I used So clean for 6 or 7 years. That never happened to me.
I still use Respify for my mask and hose and tank. No discoloration, no degradation.

I've read on this forum hard negative conclusions about ozone cleaners based (at best) on personal anecdote (or animus from those who never used such cleaners, but are still certain.) Other personal anecdotes, like mine, tell a different story.

The above post suggests that Phillips foam decomposes without ozone cleaners being involved. People have concluded that ozone accelerates degradation. Possibly. "They" say it does. How do we know? the crowd says a lot of things on the internet that aren't true. it's one of the dangers of the internet.

It could certainly be true that ozone accelerates degradation of foam and even other components! It makes sense. Maybe litigation will finally answer that question. In the meantime, I think it's an open question. My guess is that Phillip is going to point the finger. They have a vested interest in it being true.

TL;DR: Ozone cleaners damage certain materials, period. ResMed won't cover ozone cleaner damage under its warranty. Philips' foam problems are NOT due to ozone cleaners, but ozone cleaners WILL accelerate and exacerbate the foam breakdown.

I'm a mechanical and aerospace engineer, with separate degrees in each. I am not a chemist, but I do have a lot of experience and education in the technical sciences.

Ozone is a strong oxidizer. There is no question that it accelerates the degradation of certain materials, period. If you want to see a very simple proof of this using a CPAP ozone cleaner, just watch this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS_0KYLTAXo  If you watch that and say, "that's not the same, the lids were kept on the boxes so the O3 was trapped" -- well, that same thing happens inside your CPAP when you use these cleaners. It isn't expelled until you run air through it each night.

Anecdotally, I've found a number of posts in this forum and others of ResMed owners who also found foam particles in their humidifier chambers. In some of these cases, upon disassembly, the foam donut that sits above the impeller on the Resmed machines was found to have degraded, and it was getting sucked into the impeller motor as a result. In every post I've found online with a ResMed user finding foam in their humidifier, if they were asked if they used an ozone cleaner, they said yes. ResMed has also stated that they will not cover warranty on damage due to ozone cleaners.

This simply isn't a question of whether or not ozone cleaners accelerate the breakdown of certain materials -- they do, it's a fact.

With that out of the way, the Philips recall is a separate problem. It isn't caused by ozone cleaners, but it IS exacerbated and accelerated by their use.
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
I think Gideon suggested a good test to see if any foam bits are being ejected. Hold a cotton ball at the end of your hose, letting just enough air out to flow. Look at the cotton for colored bits.
Dave

OSCAR
Standard OSCAR Chart Order
Mask Primer
Dealing With A DME
Soft Cervical Collar Wiki
INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEBSITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
(06-26-2021, 07:27 PM)SarcasticDave94 Wrote: I think Gideon suggested a good test to see if any foam bits are being ejected. Hold a cotton ball at the end of your hose, letting just enough air out to flow. Look at the cotton for colored bits.

Please read through my last few posts. Foam bits being inhaled are only one of the problems, and the others are equally serious. Just because you don't have foam particulates being expelled does NOT mean it's safe to use.
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
Thanks but I've taken care of the Philips issue in 2017 when I refused to try another Philips Respironics PAP machine ever again.
Dave

OSCAR
Standard OSCAR Chart Order
Mask Primer
Dealing With A DME
Soft Cervical Collar Wiki
INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEBSITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
" they do, it's a fact."

sorry, this is what I'm questioning. This is a simple assertion. yes, it may be true! But asserting this definitively based on one internet video that hasn't been replicated in a scientific setting, and the statements of one person who admits he's not a chemist and has done no work in this field at all, simply isn't credible. Would you stop taking a medication because some people on the internet told you they have experience in an unrelated field and a strong feeling, plus a random video? No.

The poster above showed highly degraded foam without ozone cleaners. That's all we know. Others had degraded foam and used ozone, according to other internet anecdotes. Coincidence is not causality. Someone may have taken aspirin over the years and then had a heart attack. that doesn't mean aspirin causes heart attacks. Would the foam have degraded in the ozone users' machines had they not used ozone? Who knows?

People are condemning products without hard facts--I mean actual studies.
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
(06-26-2021, 07:39 PM)hegel Wrote: " they do, it's a fact."

sorry, this is what I'm questioning. This is a simple assertion. yes, it may be true! But asserting this definitively  based on one internet video that hasn't been replicated in a scientific setting, and the statements of one person who admits he's not a chemist and has done no work in this field at all, simply isn't credible. Would you stop taking a medication because some people on the internet told you they have experience in an unrelated field and a strong feeling, plus a random video? No.

The poster above showed highly degraded foam without ozone cleaners. That's all we know. Others had degraded foam and used ozone, according to other internet anecdotes. Coincidence is not causality. Someone may have taken aspirin over the years and then had a heart attack. that doesn't mean aspirin causes heart attacks. Would the foam have degraded in the ozone users' machines had they not used ozone? Who knows?

People are condemning products without hard facts--I mean actual studies.

Ozone is not some new mystery magic substance. It's been well-known and well-studied for much longer than my lifetime. It is a strong oxidizer. Strong oxidizers accelerate the degradation of materials including polymers. There's no need for a study of this -- it's as much a scientific reality as the unavoidable rusting of mild steel left out in the rain.

To be clear, my points from my earlier posts are these:
  • Ozone cleaners degrade materials used in CPAP machines (like foams) faster than without their use. Whether or not any benefit of using them outweighs this reality is up to the user. ResMed specifically will not cover damage from ozone cleaners in their warranty because of this fact.

  • Philips' foam problems due to degradation, per their own documentation that I linked earlier, are not solely caused by ozone cleaners. They can happen without. However, for the foam breakdown problems, ozone cleaners can accelerate it.

  • There are other risks from Philips' foam -- offgassing of toxic/carcinogenic VOCs above permissible levels -- which are separate from the foam breakdown. This is a health-impacting risk, and it's one that has been missed entirely in these discussions because only the longer report for care providers goes into any detail on this. The report implies through careful wording that this can happen regardless of the age of the machine ("During initial or subsequent operation of the device, a patient may be exposed to VOCs." [emphasis mine])
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