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[News] RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
(06-27-2021, 04:51 PM)qwerty42 Wrote: Laugh-a-lot Dielaughing Laugh-a-lot

Mr. Slobber, is this device compatible with the portable air compressor out in my garage? I have a 30ft hose I'd like to run in through my window and then I don't need any extra sound abatement materials. 120psi should be enough to keep the hypopneas at bay.

Hubs wants to know if he can use a dustbuster to make a DreamSuck Mini ???
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
Quote:It's that little hedge that is telling: "probably...absolutely".

It's not about hedging. It's because there's always some variability in populations depending on use. But there is no arguing that ozone damages materials (and yes, that means some hard plastics as well as foams). This is why when things are sterilised in a lab with ozone, the material is of vital importance. Also, the concentration of ozone used, the frequency, the exposure for each part, the variation in flow through the system, any leaks etc. Also, the breakdown of ozone is affected by many other factors, including humidity, temperature, ultraviolet, biological agents, etc. Does someone use an ozone cleaner once in a blue moon or every day? Do they only treat the masks, tubes etc or the machine too? How long for? How do they air it out? Do they properly ventilate the room after using it? Do they run the machine for a while to ensure that clean, non-contaminated air is thoroughly pushed through all of the nooks and crannies? These things all make a difference.

Does ozone damage the foam used in CPAPs? Yes, along with other plastics. This is non-negotiable. If you set up a controlled test and expose some polyurethane foam to ozone and some to normal air, the foam exposed to the ozone will deteriorate faster.

Will that absolutely cause harm to a person or the machine, depending on their usage? No, because in practice, biology and medicine is fuzzy and based around populations, not individuals, and there are always statistical outliers. That's just how the world works. That kind of thinking is the same as people who say "well if cigarettes cause cancer, how come my grandpappy smoked until he was 102 and was fine?" or "My mom never smoked a day in her life and SHE still died of cancer, so it must be wrong that cigarettes cause cancer." That's just not how it works.

I'm not sure what made you think that ozone "breaks down in minutes". The half-life of ozone depends on a lot of factors, but at 20 C, the half-life of ozone in air is 3 days and when completely dissolved in water at 20 C, it's 20 minutes. That means, it takes three days for half of the ozone to break down in 20 C air. Not only that, but ozone causes damage to respiratory tissues at 0.1 part per million. It takes up to 5 PPM to be effectively bacteriocidal. That's five hundred times higher than causes harm.

Now yes, sure - opening the windows and turning on ventilation may well blow most of the ozone out of the room (rather than it being broken down) but the fact is that studies have shown that ozone often persists in rooms after being left for a "safe" time, according to the manufacturer's instructions and in something like a CPAP device, with dark, closed-off nooks and crannies with no airflow through most of them, ozone can absolutely still be present when you go to use it in levels high enough to cause harm. Yes, blowing it through might be okay (but then, the ozone is in the room air, potentially in levels high enough to cause harm, depending on how much was lingering inside the machine). And using it once might be okay. Using it a handful of times might be okay too. But using it every night? That's when the likelihood of problems starts to build up.


See my comparison of Viatom/Wellue and CMS50F oximeters here.

Not a doctor, definitely not your doctor, all advice is given as-is and represents simply my own understanding as a fellow patient and OSCAR user.
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
(06-28-2021, 12:19 AM)cathyf Wrote: Hubs wants to know if he can use a dustbuster to make a DreamSuck Mini ???


Anyone know if the new DreamSuck Mini™ will have a 12-volt cigarette lighter adapter?   It really won't be a true "travel" device unless that option is available.

I'm not keeping my hopes up.  After all, Philips is the company that suggested that people actually use dihydrogen monoxide solvent inside of their proprietary CPAP humidifiers.   That stuff is used to cool nuclear reactors for cryin' out loud!!!   If a person were to do as they suggest, I'd recommend at least using dehydrated dihydrogen monoxide, which is much more safe than the pure liquid form.

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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
Or even better, instead of using dihydrogen monoxide at all, how about using oxidane instead? It's similar but much more effective, as long as you make sure to leave the parts to fully dry before use. You definitely don't want to be breathing any kind of solvents in...!


See my comparison of Viatom/Wellue and CMS50F oximeters here.

Not a doctor, definitely not your doctor, all advice is given as-is and represents simply my own understanding as a fellow patient and OSCAR user.
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
(06-28-2021, 12:19 AM)cathyf Wrote: Hubs wants to know if he can use a dustbuster to make a DreamSuck Mini ???

Dielaughing Dielaughing
He better get his patent filed ASAP before Philips catches wind of this. Pressure's on!
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
(06-28-2021, 12:30 AM)Ratchick Wrote: It's not about hedging. It's because there's always some variability in populations depending on use. But there is no arguing that ozone damages materials (and yes, that means some hard plastics as well as foams). This is why when things are sterilised in a lab with ozone, the material is of vital importance. Also, the concentration of ozone used, the frequency, the exposure for each part, the variation in flow through the system, any leaks etc. Also, the breakdown of ozone is affected by many other factors, including humidity, temperature, ultraviolet, biological agents, etc. Does someone use an ozone cleaner once in a blue moon or every day? Do they only treat the masks, tubes etc or the machine too? How long for? How do they air it out? Do they properly ventilate the room after using it? Do they run the machine for a while to ensure that clean, non-contaminated air is thoroughly pushed through all of the nooks and crannies? These things all make a difference.

Does ozone damage the foam used in CPAPs? Yes, along with other plastics. This is non-negotiable. If you set up a controlled test and expose some polyurethane foam to ozone and some to normal air, the foam exposed to the ozone will deteriorate faster.  

Will that absolutely cause harm to a person or the machine, depending on their usage? No, because in practice, biology and medicine is fuzzy and based around populations, not individuals, and there are always statistical outliers. That's just how the world works. That kind of thinking is the same as people who say "well if cigarettes cause cancer, how come my grandpappy smoked until he was 102 and was fine?" or "My mom never smoked a day in her life and SHE still died of cancer, so it must be wrong that cigarettes cause cancer." That's just not how it works.

I'm not sure what made you think that ozone "breaks down in minutes". The half-life of ozone depends on a lot of factors, but at 20 C, the half-life of ozone in air is 3 days and when completely dissolved in water at 20 C, it's 20 minutes. That means, it takes three days for half of the ozone to break down in 20 C air. Not only that, but ozone causes damage to respiratory tissues at 0.1 part per million. It takes up to 5 PPM to be effectively bacteriocidal. That's five hundred times higher than causes harm.

Now yes, sure - opening the windows and turning on ventilation may well blow most of the ozone out of the room (rather than it being broken down) but the fact is that studies have shown that ozone often persists in rooms after being left for a "safe" time, according to the manufacturer's instructions and in something like a CPAP device, with dark, closed-off nooks and crannies with no airflow through most of them, ozone can absolutely still be present when you go to use it in levels high enough to cause harm. Yes, blowing it through might be okay (but then, the ozone is in the room air, potentially in levels high enough to cause harm, depending on how much was lingering inside the machine). And using it once might be okay. Using it a handful of times might be okay too. But using it every night? That's when the likelihood of problems starts to build up.

I was actually going to use the same cigarette smoking analogy, but you beat me to it. Nice post! It's all accurate, but the skepticism will surely continue. That's ok -- skepticism is one of the cornerstones of science. But, it's up to the skeptics to scientifically prove it wrong Wink
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
Exactly - or to steal a quote from someone more eloquent than I am "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". In other words, if you tell me you have a pet cat, I'm not going to disbelieve you because lots of people have cats, and whether or not you have one is not really going to affect much of anything. On the other hand, you tell me that a core scientific principle is wrong despite centuries of evidence, tests, experiments by people trying to break the model (because that's what scientists do when they peer review and repeat trials trying to recreate the results), then you better have some really good data to demonstrate why, and how your new model explains it better, and how you've done every possible thing to exclude error on your part.


See my comparison of Viatom/Wellue and CMS50F oximeters here.

Not a doctor, definitely not your doctor, all advice is given as-is and represents simply my own understanding as a fellow patient and OSCAR user.
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
Seems that we are now getting close to solving double negatives and oxymorons in science?


     It appears that a pow wow occurred with Philips Respironics and the big Five Docs' associations.
They agree to write the Center for Medicare and Medicaid and the DME Groups to get them also involved in providing whatever helpt they can to us DreamStation sufferers. It will be next August 2022 before I can get a new machine paid my by Humana Medicare Advantage plan.
    On one hand, my sleep Doc told me that PR wants him to tell me to stop using my DreamStation, so he did! On the other hand, as my physician he wants me to continue treatment so I don't deterirate any more from my sleep apnea disorder.....This reminds me of President Truman when he requested a one arm economist.
    At least I changed my FF mask from Respironics to ResMed and ordered some filters from Amazon which will take longer than usual due to high demand.
    The good news is am 80 years old and probably will die before the DreamStation derived cancer kills me?
So much for dark humor   Sleep-well
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
qwerty42;

Do you happen to know what foam product they are using in the DreamStation 2?

It would be very interesting to be able to compare that foam with the foam in the recalled products.

It has been stated in numerous previous threads that the recalled products were using degradable and dangerous foam. They would have had that information, but I think that they thought they would have their new product replacements online and available before any serious medical condition would show up and that most users would want to upgrade.

Two problems with that:

1. The pristine and sterile environment that they do their testing is not even close to the real world where their customers would be using their products. The rate of degradation was happening at a much faster rate than they had originally seen in their testing. 

2. Covid happened: Of course, they would not have known that at the time they made their decisions on foam. If they would have known, I am pretty confident in saying that they would have used a much safer form of insulation. 
Because of Covid, medical facilities around the world and users, like us, decided to keep the products we were using and not make any changes with the products that were still working, and we all thought were safe.
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RE: RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS
"But there is no arguing that ozone damages materials (and yes, that means some hard plastics as well as foams). This is why when things are sterilised in a lab with ozone, the material is of vital importance. Also, the concentration...."

All I can say is that I used a S0clean for years and never had damage to my mask, tub or tube. Possibly I had damage to my old brick of a machine but it never showed. I use a Respify device now and still no damage to my mask, tube or tub. Perhaps you mean in absolute terms that ozone is breaking those things down--just not enough to show in the normal life of such items. In that case, what does it matter?

I never wrote that ozone "breaks down in minutes" as you quote me as saying. It's bad form to put false words in my mouth, but maybe you were getting even for my 'hedging' remark, which I admit was poorly made. In any case, we're not talking about the breakdown rate of ozone in water. What I've read is that ozone in air converts back to oxygen in 30 minutes to four hours.

Well, ozone is widely used in hospitals and labs and other places. What can I say? I simply don't think it's the dangerous poison that eats through tubes and tubs that you make it out to be. But enough, I can't continue, you'll be glad to know.
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