[News] RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS

[WakeUpTime]

Lawyers take 40% off the top of any settlement. So unless they can get thousands of customers to sign on for the lawsuit, I do not see that going anywhere. 

Personally, I have no issues with lawyers taking 40% or more from a class-action, as long as they are able to obtain a result for each client that is significantly greater than what Philips is offering its defective device users - which at the moment is merely replacing a piece of deteriorating cancer-causing foam with another stiffer (presumably non-cancer-causing) foam, at some date well into the future.  They also left us without any life-altering medical device in the mean-time, by instructing us to immediately halt using their system.

Anything a lawyer is able to obtain well beyond that for users individually would be great.  I accept that lawyers have costs and need all the motivation possible to achieve the greatest possible result.

At this moment, defective device users are being crushed by a very large international corporation - financially, health-wise, psychologically (anxiety), etc.  Everything, at the moment, is well in Philips' favor, and well-against the end-user.  Philips has NOT actually committed to any firm timetable or specific detailed actions.  


Philips' Legal Department has also created an effective trap for most users of their defective systems:  If you failed to follow their advice to immediately stop using their recalled systems, subsequent adverse health effects may be solely blamed on you, rather than Philips.  Simultaneously, by not providing you with an immediate replacement solution for your required health-saving medical device, Philips has in effect forced a further financial penalty on end-users of an additional $1,000-$2,000.  It's a well thought out legal squeeze play.

Philips defective device users are in desperate need of a coordinated response to Philips' negligence, inaction, minimalist financial commitment, slow repair schedule and blatant arrogance.

[smfkdol9392]

Why you probably won’t get a repair/replacement from Phillips for a very long time, if ever:

1. Supply chains for high tech items such as respiratory ventilators have been severely impacted by Covid lockdowns. Whether or not you think Covid lockdowns are/were a good idea, we are now seeing the blowback from too few workers. We have heard about  this problem in the automobile sector - there are too few new and used cars to meet demand because of shortages in semiconductors, plastics, industrial chemicals, and even truck drivers to deliver inventory. There is also a major shortage in respiratory ventilators and other tech-heavy durable medical goods for similar reasons. 
   
2. There is too much money chasing too few new and used CPAP machines. Free government money might have felt good at the time, but we are paying a price because there are too few CPAP machines on the market to meet everyone’s needs. Just like with automobiles, there has been a glut of buyers and too little inventory to keep up with CPAP demand. This pre-dates the Phillips foam announcement. The announcement has put this scarcity effect on steroids
   
3. Too much free money and too little production has created a shortage of CPAP machines. And with shortages come bad people to fill in the gaps. Without a doubt, unscrupulous people are already scraping the web for cheap CPAP machines being sold by unsophisticated sellers. You’ve heard it many times before: “I don’t use my machine, it didn’t work after 2 weeks of therapy. I will sell it to the first person who emails me for $50”. You know those sellers are. Unscrupulous people will buy these machines and turn around to sell them for exorbitant markups to people who can afford them. Not to people who need them the most. The market is now heavily distorted towards people with purchasing power. It wasn’t like this before, when it was possible to buy a quality used machine for a low(er) price.
   
4. Phillips doesn’t have any incentives to replace your machine. You have already been using it for months, if not years. If there is damage, it has already been done. If you keep using it, that vaguely signals that you accept the risks. If you don’t keep using it, that signals that you can live without a CPAP machine for a while. Either way, there is no motivation right now for them to do the right thing. It’s unlikely that they could even do the right thing. That’s because of the massive labor and parts shortages that resulted from Covid lockdowns and government printing of money. 
   

I wouldn’t get your hopes up. Your real question should be whether or not you really think this foam is a big deal. People smoke, they live in big cities, they work at gas stations and in garages and in chemical factories, they do things every day that put small amounts of carcinogens into their lungs for hours on end. If you think you have significant risk then you also have to consider whether anxiety over this will be helpful. What is done is done. We all have lives that end somehow. Maybe this will be that somehow, but I am thinking for the overwhelming majority of us it will not affect our health. I definitely don’t know that for sure, but I think it’s a reasonable starting place. 

[qwerty42]

qwerty42;

Do you happen to know what foam product they are using in the DreamStation 2?

Hi there, sorry, I don't know what the new foam is made from. You can clearly see what it looks like in this video, though: https://youtu.be/kFxtA3y1ucQ

I could take a guess as to what I *think* it is based on its appearance/density/texture, but I don't want to start rumors so I won't speculate 

I do agree with you that it's clear Philips knew there was a need for a new foam well prior to the recall, back when DreamStation 2 was first being developed. Those reasons could vary from "we've seen this foam start to crumble but otherwise it's safe" to "this foam is a health hazard in multiple ways and we need to get it out of our products." We as the public might never know the extent of what they knew and when they knew it.

The thing we can say with a high degree of confidence is that with the launch of a new product, setting up supply chains, manufacturing, documentation, etc.; and also getting it through FDA approvals, things take time. So, the switch to a new material definitely didn't happen overnight.

[WakeUpTime]

... it's clear Philips knew there was a need for a new foam well prior to the recall, back when DreamStation 2 was first being developed. Those reasons could vary from "we've seen this foam start to crumble but otherwise it's safe" to "this foam is a health hazard in multiple ways and we need to get it out of our products." We as the public might never know the extent of what they knew and when they knew it.

The thing we can say with a high degree of confidence is that with the launch of a new product, setting up supply chains, manufacturing, documentation, etc.; and also getting it through FDA approvals, things take time. So, the switch to a new material definitely didn't happen overnight.

Given those steps from re-development, production, approvals, etc., up until their est. April 23rd release of DreamStation 2, that brings it back to making their decision to re-develop the DreamStation (and to switch from the foam they had used for well over a decade) likely between January and September 2019.  (A lawyer would be able to pull the actual dates for medical and electrical approvals, any design patent registrations, etc.).

Prior to early 2019, I'd speculate that Philips learned of the advanced degradation of the internal foam, accelerated by the frequent use of ozone cleaning products.  It may have been a user complaint of dark particles coming through the machine, who might have been a daily SoClean user.  That complaint likely made it from service, to quality assurance, then to the design department - eventually reported to all top department executives.  

This was the critical moment (at the end of 2018, or early 2019) when Philips top executives could have decided to implement a foam replacement plan for almost all their previous systems.  Instead, they simply built an entirely new systems architecture (DreamStation 2 family).  Only in the beginning of 2021 did they warn users to immediately stop using their machines.  

The Philips CEO might have earlier justified waiting several years for those defective foam-based machines to become retired through natural obsolesce and upgrading to DreamStation 2.  After all, no one would immediately die from using those defective machines.  Philips was interested in saving 500 Million EURO after all,  Frequent SoClean-cleaning users eventually forced Philips to finally respond.

Had COVID-19 not happened, and Philips invasive ventilator systems
not achieve such massive increases in demand in 2020,
Philips may have recalled their defective systems in 2020.

But in 2020, Philips had to be significantly focused on
that immediate sales opportunity
that would forever change its corporate product focus.

With 2020's COVID-19 related production challenges,
Philips likely chose to postpone their defective
device recall for another year, thereby knowingly
allowing users to continue to consume defective foam particles.

Notification of recalled defective systems would be even further delayed,
as Philips "needed" to begin production of its DreamStation 2 Series.

That, one could argue, was extremely negligent.

This may explain why two key Philips division executives recently left (or were removed) from their top positions.  Philips CEO (Frans van Houten) announced 2 months ago that the leaders of those key divisions were "stepping down" - the Strategic Business Development Leader and formerly in charge of our Diagnosis & Treatment (Rob Cascella), and the  Chief Innovation Strategy Officer (Jeroen Tas).


Earlier this year, at the 2021 World Economic Forum ("The Davos Agenda 2021"), the Philips CEO told world leaders, economic ministers and billionaire investors:

"Looking forward, the need for greater resilience and flexibility in healthcare systems, 

the need to move care to lower cost community and home-based settings..."

Ironically, just a few weeks later, Philips would become wrapped up in a significant systems design flaw, without an immediate solution, within the home-based medical user community.  

But as others keep reminding us, end-users are not their customers.  Philips is only concerned that distributors continue to purchase and re-sell Philips products.  Philips authorized DMEs will likely be offered substantial incentives, bonuses, product giveaways, etc., to attract future DME inventory purchases from Philips.

[EngineerBoo]

Yep, I'm DONE with Philips...will never use their products ever again! Wow, the disdain for lawyers in here! (Which I happen to agree with.)

I finally did hear from my DME...good news and bad news. Good news is she has a new ResMed, bad news is I can buy but it's $750. Good news is that I can get my Doctor to send her some sort of authorization and I can turn in my DreamStation and get issued the ResMed under my health insurance. (I'm not sure how all that healthcare insurance stuff works...it's all voodoo magic to me!)

So my DreamStation is in the car...hoping I can get the ResMed later today....then I'm sure I'll be back here with questions about how to use it right. (I've only been using my DreamStation since last July and my allergies this year are the worst ever and I had a bad sinus infection in April...so not sure if those are related.)

[Kuutar]

Hello to all,

Great information on this forum! I find myself here due to the Phillips CancerStation debacle. I have the "Dream"Station 1 CPAP machine and had been using it since late January. My Sleep "Care" Center emailed me on Friday regarding the recall. They followed up with another email later that day detailing some ridiculous guidelines about options including getting an inline filter that would filter particles but not gases etc. Did some research, found information on how the device emits chemicals from day 1 and discontinued using it. Monday morning called the insurance company to find out what their take is, they said due to medical necessity (I have severe sleep apnea) they will cover the cost of getting a new machine for me. I had paid a high deductible for the cancerstation, $750, in January.

Now I'm dealing with the Sleep "Care" Center. They were a pain to deal with before and now are even more unorganized if possible. Insurance company needs their doctor to send a prescription for the replacement machine. I told them to get me a Resmed machine. I will not touch another Phillips machine.

The sleep study showed I had > 90 apnea events before starting CPAP, which was shocking to me, but also explained so much. Using the CPAP brought the events to < 3, which according to the sleep doctor was good. After the first 2-3 nights of CPAP use, I noticed a huge difference in the way I felt, clarity of thought, more energy, no sleepiness during the day etc. But not knowing I was inhaling harmful chemicals obviously. I did have an occasional headache, coughing, pain in throat, and constant feeling of pressure on the chest. I thought at the time these were probably due to the air being pushed into me.

My ultimate goal is to take charge of my CPAP use and cut the mostly useless Sleep "Care" Center from the picture. If they don't proceed quickly with the replacement machine, I might cut them off sooner rather than later.

[Crimson Nape]

Hi Kuutar!

With the gloom and doom warning issued, it is very easy for your mind to run in this direction. As new as your DreamStation is, I feel pretty confident that the foam hasn't had time to degrade to a point of concern. The symptoms that you describe are common to new CPAP users. The increased air flow can dry your airway. This can cause your body to respond with coughing and the creation of mucus. The increased pressure can cause temporary discomfort when breathing.

Finally, Resmed offers 4 models within the AirSense series. They are the CPAP, Elite, Autoset, and Autoset for Her. Make sure one of the last two is specified by your doctor.

- Red

[WakeUpTime]

Philips has received reports of possible patient impact due to foam degradation. 


The potential risks of particulate exposure include:

• Headache
  
• Irritation
  
• Inflammation
  
• Respiratory issues
  
• Toxic effects
  
• Cancer or other carcinogenic effects
  

Potential risks of chemical exposure due to off-gassing include:

• Headache
  
• Irritation
  
• Hypersensitivity
  
• Nausea/vomiting
  
• Toxic effects
  
• Carcinogenic effects
  

[cathyf]

Philips has received reports of possible patient impact due to foam degradation.

Yeah except "patient impact" could mean as little as "was upset by reading the recall notice".

Or even that the cpap got louder. (It is sound-deadening foam after all!)

Weasel words. Lawyereze...

[WakeUpTime]

There are a number of legal firms that are currently requesting information from affected recall device users.  At the moment, there doesn't seem to be a consolidated effort.  One merely needs to search "philips ventilator recall lawyer" for a list.  The popular one early on seemed to be "Bronstein, Gewirtz & Grossman" though others are continually appearing.  

Interestingly, Canadians seem to be also included in the recall and their dominant local firm seems to be "Thomson Rogers Lawyers".  If there are other country users with any local firms that seem to be actively involved, please feel free to post (only) their company names - please avoid web-links, contact numbers, etc.

Philips Poll: http://www.apneaboard.com/forums/Thread-...hases-POLL