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[News] What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Post: #11
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-29-2012 01:22 PM)BabyDoc Wrote:  I fear that people, as despirate as they for a good night's sleep, go ahead with lists like this and take a bunch of different substances at the same time. (They sound harmless, don't they?) We really don't know what they are doing and need to be more careful, with both their untested short and long term effects.

Totally agree. Due to the fact that no substantial testing has been done, there is no reasonable way to know for certain what risks one is taking.

But that being said, to some degree, there is something to be said for a large number of independent people claiming that a particular herb works for a particular ailment. That in and of itself is a bit of evidence, even if it is not scientific nor controlled... and even quite subjective.

But, lacking any studies to prove one way or the other, people who are suffering will go to great lengths to relieve pain and suffering, even if it means taking risks regarding potential side-effects of un-tested substances.

Not sure we're ever going to prevent people from taking risks when it comes to alternative medicine.

But, even with scientific controlled studies on "conventional drugs", many of these studies have been proven to be biased in favor of the drug being tested, to the detriment of the patients who use them. Having a "controlled study" is still no guarantee of safety.

Overall, I'm not sure it can even be rightly claimed that the majority of pre-tested prescription drugs are any more safe than the majority of over-the-counter herbal remedies. Dont-know

Each has their place in patient treatment for sure... and to discount one completely in favor of the other seems to me to be a myopic viewpoint.

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06-29-2012 04:38 PM
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Post: #12
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
I think more people died or harmed from taking prescription drugs than taking herbs or so called illegal drugs.
Even if prescription drugs are tested more often the testing done in a dubious circumstances and the test results are rigged in favor of the drug cartel and only when someone died from taking the drugs the authorities intervene and withdraw the drug from sale. Have you ever thought why the doctor prescribe one particular drug not the other? Food for thought ...
06-29-2012 05:06 PM
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mjbearit Offline

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Post: #13
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
Every time I sit down in front of the television, I see commercials for on prescription drug or another than has been linked to <fill in the blank>. There are so many lawsuits around this they have their own phone number! I won't give the prefix but the letters that correspond with the numbers spell out BAD DRUG. It just amazes me that so many of these drugs slip through the "supposedly" thorough screening process. A few years back there was a big issue with people buying their drugs from Canada via postal service because it was so much cheaper. Everyone was all in a dither about that! But then the truth briefly showed it's face and that iis that most of those drugs were made in the US then shipped to Canada. Just after I read that article I walked over to my chair, sat down and grabbed my med bottle to take my meds. There on the side of the bottle from a pharmacy at a major hospital were the words "Made In <foreign country>" I just had a senior moment. It wasn't Puerto Rico, but it was someplace in that vicinity. PR I could have accepted as it is a US protectorate, but this country is not. Prescription drugs are big business and a lot of money goes into their manufacture, advertisement and sale. Meanwhile there are new leads found in the Amazon every day, but since that is grown by nature, and they cannot patent it, they make it go away. I don't have an issue with someone trying herbals. The pharmaceutics seem o be killing people just as fast...or faster!

As always, YMMV! You do not have to agree or disagree, I am not a professional so my mental meanderings are simply recollections of things from my own life.

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06-29-2012 06:15 PM
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archangle Offline
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Post: #14
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
I love it when people are afraid of "drugs" that have been rigorously tested in the lab, but they're willing to take something made from "natural" ingredients with no quality controls with unknown properties and no clinical studies just because it was recommended by some anonymous person on the internet, some snake oil salesman, or the guy on the radio talk show who believes in aliens and thinks George Bush used weather manipulation to cause Katrina to hit New Orleans.

And then there's "natural" ingredients. Even if it really is "natural", so is caffeine, nicotine, salt, alcohol, botulin toxin, asbestos, crude oil, cholesterol, saturated fat, arsenic, pollen, black mold, lead, radon, sugar, poison ivy, etc.

Don't get me started on homeopathy.

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06-29-2012 08:13 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Post: #15
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-29-2012 08:13 PM)archangle Wrote:  I love it when people are afraid of "drugs" that have been rigorously tested in the lab, but they're willing to take something made from "natural" ingredients with no quality controls with unknown properties and no clinical studies just because it was recommended by some anonymous person on the internet, some snake oil salesman, or the guy on the radio talk show who believes in aliens and thinks George Bush used weather manipulation to cause Katrina to hit New Orleans.

Well, many of the herbs used in homeopathy can be grown in one's own garden, so that eliminates the risk of getting it from some anonymous person or snake oil salesman on the Internet who may have dubious quality standards or manufacturing methods, at least.

I think there are extremes on both sides: 1) the people who believe only FDA-approved drugs are safe, and 2) those who use only herbal remedies believing that most modern pharmaceuticals are poison.

There is nothing wrong with herbal medicine as a whole - it's been reported that as much as 70% of new FDA-approved drugs produced in the U.S. in the last 25 years have come from natural products like herbs. Large pharmaceutical companies don't have a monopoly on drugs that work... although they'd like you to believe that they do.

We must realize that while indeed there are many snake oil salesmen in the homeopathic arena... there are just as many snake oil salesmen that spend millions of dollars hawking their latest drug on major media every single day of the year. The difference is that one has a limited budget and the other has millions at their disposal. In such a marketing race, guess who generally wins?

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06-29-2012 09:02 PM
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archangle Offline
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Post: #16
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
Be sure you understand what "homeopathy" means. It's not herbal, holistic, or "natural" medication.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

Homeopathy usually involves taking some substance, diluting it, doing some operation to the diluted solution like hitting the container. This supposedly makes the water "potentialized" to now have healing properties. They then repeat the dilution and "potentialization" process several times. The final preparation may not even contain any molecules of the original substance, just water.

Extract of hoohah herb might help treat a medical condition. I'm skeptical that water with some sort of magic memory of hoohah herb is going to help.

I was always skeptical that the water would remember the "good" stuff and not all the sewage, animal droppings, containers, piping, chemical contaminants, etc. that the water molecules have been exposed to since they were created by some chemical reaction.

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06-30-2012 02:55 AM
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Post: #17
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-30-2012 02:55 AM)archangle Wrote:  Be sure you understand what "homeopathy" means. It's not herbal, holistic, or "natural" medication.

Yep... I do know. I went to a homeopathic doctor here in Indiana for several years who made his own solutions with natural products including stuff grown in his own garden and from other (mostly local) growers. He did obtain solutions from other sources when it would not be possible to make them locally. He also recommended straight herbal remedies for some illnesses. He was more of a "holistic" doctor and would prescribe conventional drugs when appropriate.

As with all things, there are extremes. "Water Memory" is a bunch of smoke-and-mirrors... and reputable homeopaths don't believe such nonsense.

Unfortunately, it's the nonsense junk that gets publicized and entered into Wikipedia articles like you cite and the homeopathic/herbal stuff that actually works to some degree gets pushed out of view. The baby gets thrown out with the bathwater with a lot of this stuff.

I do understand what you're saying, Arch... I'm not saying that homeopathic, herbal or natural medicines are the be-all-end-all solutions for all of life's problems... I'm simply saying that many folks read Wiki articles like this on the web and automatically assume that all homeopathic or herbal remedies are snake-oil solutions.

I don't believe all the hype of natural medicine proponents any more than I believe all the hype of those who promote nothing but FDA-approved pharmaceuticals.

If we close our minds to the possibilities that alternatives exist outside of our pre-conceived beliefs, I think we do ourselves a disservice. As an example, here on Apnea Board, we advocate that patients should take an active role in their own therapy and even go so far as to adjust their own CPAP pressure. But there are those in the "conventional medical field" who think we are committing the unpardonable medical sin of self-medication should we even think of making our own CPAP adjustments... and they scream bloody murder that we're going to kill ourselves doing so. I say to heck with them - there is no substance to the core assumptions in their objections... and to those who say that FDA-approved drugs are the only way to go and that everything else is snake-oil.... well, they're using the same over-generalizing logic as those who scream at us for adjusting our own CPAP pressure.

I'm just advocating a balanced, reasoned approach to medicine that does not automatically discount alternatives.

Smile

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06-30-2012 08:33 AM
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mjbearit Offline

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Post: #18
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-29-2012 08:13 PM)archangle Wrote:  I love it when people are afraid of "drugs" that have been rigorously tested in the lab, but they're willing to take something made from "natural" ingredients with no quality controls with unknown properties and no clinical studies just because it was recommended by some anonymous person on the internet, some snake oil salesman, or the guy on the radio talk show who believes in aliens and thinks George Bush used weather manipulation to cause Katrina to hit New Orleans.

And then there's "natural" ingredients. Even if it really is "natural", so is caffeine, nicotine, salt, alcohol, botulin toxin, asbestos, crude oil, cholesterol, saturated fat, arsenic, pollen, black mold, lead, radon, sugar, poison ivy, etc.

Don't get me started on homeopathy.

Just because someone does not discount herbals out of hand does not make them a nut-job or fearful of conventional medications. I take my Rx meds every day, Herbals run the scale from "drink this special tea and you'll lose 100 lbs in a week" to eat a little candied ginger and it will help with seasickness. By the way, the candied ginger does work I just can't stand the taste!
Some herbals actually make it into everyone's home. As far back as we know White Willow Bark was used medicinally. The ancient Egyptians used it. Hippoctrates wrote about it. Later it was discovered that the active ingredient in White Willow Bark was salicin, but extracting it was an expensive and time consuming process. In 1852 salicylic acid was developed in Germany. Once taken in the body, salicylic acid turns into salicin. Due to the incidence of stomach ulcers and bleeding a company called Bayer synthesized a less harsh version of salicylic acid and marketed it under the name of Aspirin. Over time the product name Aspirin was not actively protected and it became the common name for the drug, rather than the product name.
Not all herbals are snake-oil. There are many out there, but to dismiss everything that is not synthetic is to be blind to proven medical fact. To this day you can still use white willow back and have the same results as aspirin. There was never an issue with it until it was first synthesized. I would personally rather take my daily 81mg pill every day than chew on a piece of bark, but it is definitely not snake-oil.

As always, YMMV! You do not have to agree or disagree, I am not a professional so my mental meanderings are simply recollections of things from my own life.

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06-30-2012 09:09 AM
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archangle Offline
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Post: #19
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-30-2012 08:33 AM)SuperSleeper Wrote:  As with all things, there are extremes. "Water Memory" is a bunch of smoke-and-mirrors... and reputable homeopaths don't believe such nonsense.

If they don't believe in that, they're not practicing homeopathy. They may be dispensing effective remedies, but it's not homeopathy.

I have no problems believing that there are herbal chemicals or other chemical preparations that are effective medicines. Lots of the current "reputable" drugs are derived from "natural" substances. If you don't dilute it down to ridiculous levels, it's not homeopathy.

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06-30-2012 10:09 AM
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archangle Offline
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Post: #20
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-30-2012 09:09 AM)mjbearit Wrote:  Just because someone does not discount herbals out of hand does not make them a nut-job or fearful of conventional medications.

The problem is the nutjobs who think that herbals are always superior to conventional medicine and somehow safer and purer.

They get people killed because they talk them out of using effective medicine and using stuff that doesn't work as well. It's like telling someone they should throw away their CPAP and just play a digeridoo. It might work for some, but most people will suffer if they neglect their conventional therapy.

There may be some herbal remedies out there that are superior to the conventional medicines. If they are, someone will eventually take them and make a conventional medicine out of them.

Whether it's the product of the laboratory, or something organically grown by an ancient order of mystic sages, it's just chemicals. Some chemicals are helpful, some aren't. There is no magic karma from the earth goddess that makes your herbal remedy effective. If your hooha oil herbal remedy is effective, it's because it's got 1-napthyl-n-methyl-trans-phenyl-cyclohexane in the leaves.

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06-30-2012 10:28 AM
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