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[News] What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
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Sleepster Offline
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Post: #21
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-29-2012 10:04 AM)SuperSleeper Wrote:  Big pharmaceutical companies are interested in making profit, and you can't easily patent a plant or herb in order to make exclusive profit under patent laws, therefore the incentive to provide corporate funding for scientific studies for alternative treatments is insignificant when compared to the monies available for studying a company's patented drug.

This is the argument used by those who defend government-funded research, not just in medicine, but in many other areas as well.

We hear everywhere, including here on this forum, complaints from taxpayers who think their tax dollars are wasted on basic research.

Gone are the days when corporations like Ma Bell could afford to conduct basic research.

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06-30-2012 10:55 AM
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Post: #22
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-30-2012 10:09 AM)archangle Wrote:  
(06-30-2012 08:33 AM)SuperSleeper Wrote:  As with all things, there are extremes. "Water Memory" is a bunch of smoke-and-mirrors... and reputable homeopaths don't believe such nonsense.

If they don't believe in that, they're not practicing homeopathy. They may be dispensing effective remedies, but it's not homeopathy.

Well, if you're going to let the critics of homeopathy define the term, yes. But I'm going by what modern homeopaths themselves define as homeopathy, not some Wiki article that anyone in the world can edit at any time for any reason, biased or unbiased.

Here's how the practitioners of homeopathy define it themselves:

http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/about-homeopathy/what-is-homeopathy/

http://nationalcenterforhomeopathy.org/content/what-is-homeopathy

As far as I can tell, none of these major homeopathic websites claim that water has some sort of special magic "memory powers" (where water can remember since time began what things were mixed with it). In fact, most define homeopathy as "A system for the treatment of disease by minute doses of natural substances that in a healthy person would produce symptoms of disease." A homeopath does not need to believe in "magic water memory" to be a homeopath.

Again, I'm not defending homeopathy to the detriment of all other treatments. But to define the term "homeopathy" using definitions created by those who call homeopathy quackery is hardly an unbiased source for a definition.

Smile

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06-30-2012 11:13 AM
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Post: #23
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-30-2012 10:55 AM)Sleepster Wrote:  This is the argument used by those who defend government-funded research, not just in medicine, but in many other areas as well.

Just to clarify, I in no way am trying to use this as a reason to increase government funding for research programs. I'm just stating the facts on why natural medicines don't have as many studies backing them up as do the FDA-approved medicines.

I very seldom think that more and bigger government is the answer to anything. We've got WAY too big and intrusive government as it is. SHa_biggrin5

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06-30-2012 11:16 AM
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Post: #24
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
As one example of a "homeopathic method" that worked for me personally is my allergies to pollen. Several years ago, a doctor (non-homeopath) suggested to me that many of my allergies were caused by local pollens... So, he suggested going out to local honey producers and purchasing locally-produced honey. I was to take one tablespoon of honey every day for a year. The concept was that the honey has small amounts of the local pollens suspended within itself. By taking small minute dosages of the actual substance that was causing my symptoms to flare up, my body slowly built up a resistance to the local pollens.

I did this for a full year. The result was that I haven't had any allergy issues since then. Was this a scientific study? Nope. Do I have proof that it caused my allergies to go away? Nope. Do I even care? Nope... because I don't have to suffer any more. Would I do something like that again? You bet.

This was a basic homeopathic solution... give the patient minute amounts of the very thing that causes the problem, and the body will act slowly over time to heal itself in reaction to those minute amounts. It's the same reason why many city-dwelling kids develop so many allergies - they have no exposure to the elements that cause allergies, so their bodies have no chance to build immunity.

And, by the way, it's the very same concept behind modern immunizations and vaccines. It's funny that modern medicine believes in this concept when it comes to promoting FDA-approved vaccines and immunizations, but the very same concept applied within homeopathic medicine is viewed as quackery. Dont-know

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06-30-2012 11:33 AM
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Post: #25
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-30-2012 10:28 AM)archangle Wrote:  
(06-30-2012 09:09 AM)mjbearit Wrote:  Just because someone does not discount herbals out of hand does not make them a nut-job or fearful of conventional medications.

The problem is the nutjobs who think that herbals are always superior to conventional medicine and somehow safer and purer.

They get people killed because they talk them out of using effective medicine and using stuff that doesn't work as well. It's like telling someone they should throw away their CPAP and just play a digeridoo. It might work for some, but most people will suffer if they neglect their conventional therapy.

There may be some herbal remedies out there that are superior to the conventional medicines. If they are, someone will eventually take them and make a conventional medicine out of them.

Whether it's the product of the laboratory, or something organically grown by an ancient order of mystic sages, it's just chemicals. Some chemicals are helpful, some aren't. There is no magic karma from the earth goddess that makes your herbal remedy effective. If your hooha oil herbal remedy is effective, it's because it's got 1-napthyl-n-methyl-trans-phenyl-cyclohexane in the leaves.

Well it does tend to work best if taken while standing on one leg during the first night of a new moon...preferably on a Thursday!

As always, YMMV! You do not have to agree or disagree, I am not a professional so my mental meanderings are simply recollections of things from my own life.

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06-30-2012 12:15 PM
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Post: #26
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-30-2012 12:15 PM)mjbearit Wrote:  Well it does tend to work best if taken while standing on one leg during the first night of a new moon...preferably on a Thursday!

Well... yeah... right... I would have mentioned that, but I just assumed everyone already knew that all homeopathic remedies had to be taken while standing on one leg during the first night of a new moon.... Dont-know

The "on Thursday" part is optional, but beneficial if the calendar is cooperative. Bigwink

Laugh-a-lotDielaughing

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06-30-2012 12:33 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Post: #27
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-30-2012 11:33 AM)SuperSleeper Wrote:  I was to take one tablespoon of honey every day for a year. The concept was that the honey has small amounts of the local pollens suspended within itself. By taking small minute dosages of the actual substance that was causing my symptoms to flare up, my body slowly built up a resistance to the local pollens.

This is the same principle behind the allergy injections and drops. It is homeopathy, but there are scientific studies that show that it does work.

The mechanism by which it works is not understood. That is, there is no scientific evidence to support the principle of why it works.

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(This post was last modified: 06-30-2012 01:41 PM by Sleepster.)
06-30-2012 01:39 PM
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Post: #28
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
I am a firm believer in homeopathy because I have seen it work on my critters. I have seen a cat go from being lethargic and unresponsive to purring and eating within ten minutes. I've seen a dog react the same way (minus the purring). I've seen two dogs completely calm down from an very agitated state to being asleep. Dogs and cats and horses don't know placebo from aspirin. In nearly all of those situations I mention above, I had no faith it would work. That eliminates the owner wishful thinking or making something fit the result they wanted. I witnessed the entire thing so it's not like the vet gave them something else then proclaimed it was homeopathy.

However, I have never gotten homeopathy to work for me the way it was supposed to. One remedy for a headache made my shoulder feel much better. Another headache remedy gave me a toothache. Yes, I am weird. Our friend who was attempting to treat me just laughed her butt off both times and said "like cures like" and kept laughing. Yes, she is weird too. I looked into using it to treat my insomnia but never tried anything. If you don't get all the bits right, you could take the wrong remedy and get no result.

The basic premise of homeopathy is "like cures like". The water memory crap is new-ish and is nonsense. If water had memory it would think it was dinosaur pee. The two homeopaths I know (one is a vet, another is a therapist) do not use any water memory stuff. Of all the things I have read, seen, and heard about in how to make a homeopathic remedy, I've never heard of someone knocking on the container. As much as I like Wikipedia, this is one of those times when it could be better edited.

As for natural ingredients, I hate it when a product says that. I usually say "Cat poop is a natural ingredient." The bandwagon of 'all natural' and 'organic' is getting crowded.

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06-30-2012 04:26 PM
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Post: #29
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-30-2012 01:39 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  This is the same principle behind the allergy injections and drops. It is homeopathy, but there are scientific studies that show that it does work.

The mechanism by which it works is not understood. That is, there is no scientific evidence to support the principle of why it works.

Absolutely, 100% wrong.

The mechanism of allergy shots is very well understood. They can even tell you that what happens in terms of things like "T-cell lymphocytes. generate Immunoglobulin E molecules that bind to surface protein C2L on helper cells and deactivate the beta chain reaction." (Not the correct terms, I'm sure, but they do know the mechanisms to that degree.)

Allergy shots are not homeopathy in any sense of the word. The doctor gives you the strongest solution of the allergen that you can stand without a bad reaction and keeps increasing the dose until you no longer have a reaction. Homeopathy keeps decreasing the dose.

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07-01-2012 06:25 AM
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Post: #30
RE: What naturals drugs against sleeplessness?
(06-29-2012 09:02 PM)SuperSleeper Wrote:  There is nothing wrong with herbal medicine as a whole - it's been reported that as much as 70% of new FDA-approved drugs produced in the U.S. in the last 25 years have come from natural products like herbs. Large pharmaceutical companies don't have a monopoly on drugs that work... although they'd like you to believe that they do.

Yes, there is something wrong with herbal medicine as a whole.

Lots of people use herbal medicines instead of medically proven medicines and people die as a result. The worst thing is when stupid parents endanger their kids by doing this.

People think "herbal" untested mixes of unknown chemicals from plants are somehow safer than vigorously tested chemicals made in labs.

It's all chemicals, herbal, natural, or synthesized. Eating a mix of untested unknown chemicals from plants is unlikely to be significantly less dangerous than eating a chemical intentionally synthesized in the lab and tested for human consumption.

When GRP (Grim Reaper Pharmaceuticals) finds a new molecule that they think may be a useful drug, they test it. This includes molecules that come from "natural" sources like herbs. 9 out of 10 don't do anything useful when tested. 9 out of 10 of the molecules that have some useful effect have serious side effects when you take enough of it to help out with one condition.

Even "natural" chemicals that have had millions of dollars of testing and FDA approval sometimes turn out to have previously unknown bad side effects after they've been on the market for years. This is testing done by people with brains and money who really don't want to get sued. Even if GRP doesn't care if they kill people, they don't want to lose lawsuits. Even they think most of the new chemicals they try don't work or are dangerous and they give up on them.

Many of the medically active chemicals plants make are there in order to make browsing animals sick. The plants are actively trying to kill us. Most plants are NOT safe to eat. Why do people think that if you grind it up and call it "herbal," it's going to be safe?

Lots of plants are seriously toxic. Some are OK in small quantities but can cause serious problems if eaten in large quantities. Ricin from castor beans is one of the deadliest toxins known. A drop of nicotine extract on your leg will kill you in a few minutes. Aflatoxin from fungus that grows on many types of food is a potent carcinogen. Potato and tomato plants contain toxins.

There are very many herbal remedies and plant extracts that were widely used for many years in the past that are now known to be seriously dangerous.

Do you really think that Granny from The Beverly Hillbillies is going to come up with a safer mix of chemicals than a billion dollar drug company regulated by the FDA?

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07-01-2012 07:53 AM
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