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Preventing Rainout
#1
Preventing Rainout
I've been on CPAP for about 30 days and overall things are going okay. I have experienced "rainout" on a couple of occasions and would appreciate any feedback on how to prevent this from happening again. I used the ResMed Air Sense 10 and the Climate Control has been set to Auto with the Tube Temperature setting at 73 degrees. After my last experience with rainout, I moved my machine from the night table to the floor, based on some internet research I did. At an appointment with my DME yesterday, it was recommended that I change the Climate Control setting to Manual, use a humidity setting of 4 or 5 and set the tube temperature setting to 3 degrees warmer than my room temperature at night. It was also recommended that at nigh I keep any excess tubing under the covers at nigh to keep it warmer. It was also recommended that I move the CPAP machine back to the night table due to heat generated on the bottom of the machine when in use.

Any feedback on whether these steps make sense or additional recommendations to prevent rainout will be much appreciated.

Thank you.
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#2
RE: Preventing Rainout
My machine sits on a bed-side file cabinet. It's the same height as the top of our mattress. I use a hose holder / hanger. It sits on top of our bed's headboard. 

The hose runs uphill to the hose hanger at a very steep incline. I also use a hose cover. It makes the hose literally silent if it should move around or rub against something. 

Myself, I keep the heated hose turned off. It's never been on. I keep the Climate Control on auto. Between everything above, I've never experienced any rain-out. 

Get yourself a hose holder / hanger! That's been the single best thing I've done to vastly improve my sleep apnea treatment. 2nd best thing, was a hose cover.
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#3
RE: Preventing Rainout
When I hung my hose over something, and lowered it, the inside of the hose were drenched. I have my hose fairly leveled with the machine and no moisture issues.

I will never hang my hose again.
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#4
RE: Preventing Rainout
(07-22-2021, 12:25 PM)CorruptAlligator Wrote: When I hung my hose over something, and lowered it, the inside of the hose were drenched.  I have my hose fairly leveled with the machine and no moisture issues.

I will never hang my hose again.

I've heard of reverse universes, but I didn't think they actually existed.  Eat-popcorn
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#5
RE: Preventing Rainout
Look here
http://www.apneaboard.com/wiki/index.php/Rainout
Thank you,
Brent aka Factor

Just a Regular guy.
My untreated AHI was 87.  You can do it hang in there.
"You can if you will"   Jerry Kramer

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#6
RE: Preventing Rainout
Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.
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#7
RE: Preventing Rainout
I've had the best results when on ResMed ASV, to run the humidity in manual mode, I've had to run humidity between 4-8 on a setting scale of Off, 1-8, and the heated hose at about 80°F or higher. I keep my bedroom at about 70°F at night.

A hose hanger makes sense, and I'll get an appropriate one for my bed once I'm issued a new machine.
Dave

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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEBSITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#8
RE: Preventing Rainout
In case the ResMed AirSense 10 AUTOSET configuration options vary, depending on the Software (which they seem to do depending on Firmware Version), I won't be too specific but, the following may help to deal with Rainout.

When I first started with my own ResMed AirSense 10 AUTOSET about a year ago, I only had the plain narrow plastic Air Hose (non-Heated) that came with the machine, plus a ResMed Humidification Tank for the S10 Series.

In terms of Humidity, I mainly had the option to dial in a level from 0 to 8, with 8 being the most warm and moist.

I found that I preferred more moisture which, strange as this may seem, reduced Nasal Congestion and certainly avoided Dry Mouth/Throat.

So, after playing with the Humidity Settings for a week or so, I just set it to 8.

However, when Humidity was set to 8, I did then get problems with Rainout which, in my case, was water in the tube, that sometimes got to the Mask if the pipe got raised or lowered. That water also resulted in loud popping noises as the Positive Air Pressure pushed past what was, in effect, a self-created U-Bend Water Seal that got created in the bottom of the Pipe!

I read that a Heated Hose should help that so, I invested in a ResMed ClimateLineAir Heated Pipe, and I can advise that cured the problem totally.

I have never had any Rainout since.

I did notice that after plugging in the ResMed ClimateLineAir, the Humidity Configuration Option changed from the 0 to 8 dial, to an Auto Temperature Option, of which 27 Degrees C was the highest. I played around, as before, but decided I liked the maximum, so I left it at that and have had it set to 27 Degrees C for almost a year, with absolutely no Rainout issues.

I don't sleep that long, usually 6 hours, but I do use almost a whole Tank of water in that time.

If I sleep longer say, 8 hours, then I usually find the Tank is empty by the time I wake up.

I know I have a larger than usual lung capacity (I was a Diver in my past, and a Pilot/Aircrew so, for both roles I have had my lung capacity measured), which may explain why I tend to use a whole Tank per night.

My wife also has the same machine, also with a Humidification Tank and ClimateLine Air and, whilst she prefers 25 Degrees C, she has also had no problems at all with Rainout.

My wife is physically much smaller than me, with a smaller lung capacity and, whilst she tends to sleep for around 7-9 hours, she never uses up a Tank. Indeed, there is always 1/4 to 1/3 left when she wakes up.

The point of Posting is just to say that Rainout should be a fixable issue but, you may need to buy the ResMed ClimateLineAir Heated Pipe, if you only have a more basic Heated Pipe, or don't have any Pipe Heat at all. I think there is a less interactive Heated Pipe, so that may explain the on-going Rainout if you do. The ClimateLine Air seems to be more dynamic in terms of responding to humidity, but I do not know if it can measure humidity or not. There are Sensors at both ends, so I suspect it does read the levels as the air goes in, and as it then later reaches the Mask area. Presumably, if Humidity is higher at the Mask, then that may suggest excess moisture in the pipe (otherwise how could the Humidity increase after leaving the Water Tank?), so the Pipe adjusts accordingly.

Other than that, the other issue could be the local Relative Humidity, which can vary greatly around the World, and will, of course, mean that local conditions may make Rainout much harder to address.

We are in the UK, so the Relative Humidity tends to be fairly neutral, other than in Summer when a wet Warm Front has pitched up which, when combined with warmer than usual air, means the air can hold more moisture than, say, in a wet cold winter when the air cannot hold a lot even when everything gets rained on!

Likewise, someone in the middle of the Amazon Jungle when the Rain Season starts, may struggle a bit with Rainout due to the far higher air temperatures coupled with torrential rain, meaning the air can hold a lot of moisture, leading to unpleasant levels of Relative Humidity.

There are Meteorological Devices that can measure Relative Humidity, and your local Weather Report may even provide average figures for your area. So, keep an eye on that, to see if the Rainout issue changes in tandem with changes in your local Relative Humidity levels. That may help to pin down when it's most likely to happen.

Some Air Conditioning Units can also control Relative Humidity within a building, but they tend to be ones that, say, are needed for specific purposes such as, say, Chocolate making which needs a stable non-humid atmosphere to avoid production problems.

MoreBeers
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#9
RE: Preventing Rainout
What worked for me for a couple years . . . . . I tend to MAX humidity and COOL room.
(1) ResMed CPAP then BiPAP on shelf above bed where I could reach on-off button.
(2) BODYHEAT :: 10 Ft (3meter) hose and the hose lays under covers next to my body and back up to my mask.
(3) Terrycloth rag in case I still get occasional rainout gurgling and I wake and 'walk' the puddle to end of hose and ResMed quick disconnect and let water blow out onto terrycloth.
(4) Now have new living-bed arrangement but the routine described above was after a bit easy and comfortable.
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#10
RE: Preventing Rainout
I am using a ResMed Airsense 10 AutoSet with an F20 full face mask. The tubing is the climateline heated type. I have previously had the climate control set to manual and using a humidity level of 3 (out of 5) and the tube temperature to set 27 C. But I was getting a pretty dry nose so I decided I needed a higher level of humidity. I changed the climate control to automatic but this led to rainout (awaking me with a load clunking noise and water in the tube). Went back to manual and set humidity to a level of 4 with the tube temperature set to 30 (the max). Still for rainout. Now back to a humidity of 3 and rainout seems to have stopped.

The heated tube is definitely working - I can feel that it is warm. But it does not seem to be preventing the rainout even with it at its highest temperature. Unless I restrict the humidity level to 3. Something seems wrong, but I have no idea what.
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