(03-28-2012 05:56 AM)Netskier Wrote: I heard this hearsay on the radio, by an MIT serial entrepreneur who funds the X-prizes, and who earned an MD from Harvard. He has put up a $10 million dollar prize for the first team to invite a cell phone-based medical "Tricorder" as seen on Startrek. So this guy puts his money where his mouth is. You can listen or download this at KPFK.Org, Free Forum, last Sunday, March 25, one pm. This show was extremely good.
Netskier, what relation someone putting up money for a working "tricorder" has to do with any actual knowledge of the medical profession’s mis-diagnosis percentage somehow escapes me. It seems more likely to me he is seeking publicity with the certainty that he will unlikely ever have to pay for it, but whatever fires your rocket. However, I did not see in your statement anything to indicate he has special skills or knowledge to make such a claim, nor do I see a relationship between that and your claim of 45% mis-diagnoses. I also did not see an actual name, although that is now irrelevant.
(03-28-2012 05:56 AM)Netskier Wrote: The death rates from doctor's treatments are scary. Doctors are the third leading cause of death in the United States, according to
[commercial website link removed per Apnea Board rules] so read this and weep.
Weep? More like laugh. The website to which you refer is clearly a marketing arm for Ron Grisanti, its founder per his site, and a chiropractor (not an MD) who espouses holistic medicine. No surprise, he also runs a foundation he created which he claims trains other like-minded persons in his "functional medicine" approach - for a fee. I am simply astounded that you would cite him as a valid source of your claim of 45% mis-diagnosis by the medical profession - by which, in context, is generally meant medical doctors, not chiropractors. For most, it would require someone with actual skills and training to make such a claim before anyone could even consider it as possibly being valid. And the “article” to which you made specific reference is not only sufficiently vague as to be almost useless, almost half of the claimed deaths were, by one researcher’s own definition, “non-error” events (106,000 non-error of 250,000 total). And, of course, the totality of those articles was not included, merely bits and pieces, which enables anyone to make anything out of the work. Further, the article jumbled at least two separate reports into one (Starfield, whose date of publication was not included or I did not find it, and Leape, who published in 1991). In your original post on the subject, you claimed the Rand Corporation created the basis for the claim, not this site.
(03-28-2012 05:56 AM)Netskier Wrote: The reality is even worse than the medical mis-diagnosis rate of 45%. The sorry state of medicine in the US is a national scandal. Google for "iatrogenic illness incidence" without the quotes to find scholarly articles on this.
I also did as you suggested and performed a google search for scholarly articles. I found a few, none of which claimed that doctors misdiagnosed 45% of the time, most of which predated 1987, and some of which were from foreign countries such as Thailand. To quote you, in a prior post to Paula02, regarding both these and the before-mentioned Leape (and probably Starfield) studies:
(03-27-2012 05:06 PM)Netskier Wrote: P.S. 2. The study was published 19 yrs ago, so the work was done at least 20 yrs ago, so it is not current.
In this case, the studies you referenced had publication dates which varied from 1981 (31 years ago) to 1991 (21 years ago). Who knows when the data was collected. Certainly we can hope medicine has advanced somewhat since then, even if their content didn't supported your contention.
(03-28-2012 05:56 AM)Netskier Wrote: Is it foolish to trust implicitly in doctors if they are the third leading cause of death?
I doubt that anyone seeking information on this forum trusts doctors "implicitly". If they did, they wouldn't be here. But that is a far cry from claiming or believing that doctors are wrong 45% of the time, or that they are the "third leading cause of death". I found absolutely no evidence supporting your claim - unless it would be the chiropractor or his website in which you seem to have such confidence, and who supports a method of practice different from any mainstream medical institution, recognized medical center of learning, or the vast majority of medical doctors. Funny, but since he seems to be making his living by his claims – which support his holistic approach - don't you even wonder whether he might just possibly be biased? Certainly you are free to believe in his claims, but I can only say better you than me.
Am I a doctor? No. Do I have one in my family? No. Are there errors made by doctors? Of course – we are, after all, talking about human beings. Do these errors cause death? Sometimes they undoubtedly do. Is there ANY valid study made by any recognized authority which totals the total doctor diagnoses made during any time frame, and determines the mis-diagnoses arising from all those diagnoses? Absolutely none that I could find, and I seriously doubt that any such study exists or Netskier or the chiropractor would have cited it. And I doubt that one could exist. Anyone with mathematical knowledge can recognize that in the absence of those two figures, it is IMPOSSIBLE to determine a percentage such as has been asserted. And please don't tell me about "estimations". I would “estimate” that the chiropractor has far more to gain by trashing the medical profession than he does by supporting them. And the figure you presented was NOT an estimation.
For those whose familiarity with the mathematics involved was perhaps years ago, the method of determining a percentage such as is claimed (45% of doctors’ diagnoses wrong) would involve taking the total number of mis-diagnosed patients and dividing it by the total number of patients diagnosed[b] for the same period.[./b] The numbers for each part of the fraction would have to be for the same period of time (say Jan1-Dec31, year XXXX) for the result to be accurate. Unless you have these figures, you absolutely, positively cannot determine an accurate percentage!! For example 5 (number of mis-diagnoses) divided by 20 (total diagnoses made) equals ¼ or 25%.
What has fired me up, Netskier, is not that you have a different view of the world. You are entitled to it, and I don’t quarrel with that. I simply do not believe that this forum, where many people are seeking help with medical issues both new and frightening to them, is the proper place for gloom and doom statistics, much less those which have no actual or valid basis. And listening to, and supporting, fringe individuals that do, is your unquestionable right. Just give consideration to the mainstream who don’t support that element and who are more interested in a simple answer to their immediate questions about devices, hoses, reports, etc. You got that benefit when you first came here.