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S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

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Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #11
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
jeffy1958 Wrote:
Quote:
HeadGear Wrote:The hose normally heats up so as to keep the air temperature constant at, say 80 degrees.

You are absolutely correct. The "INSIDE" of the hose is heated. It is the outer skin that is in contact with the outside air that causes the air inside to cool enough to cause condensation.
HeadGear Wrote:That logic only applies if the heating in the hose fails - i.e. the hose is defective.
If the hose heater fails, the air inside the hose is the same temp as outside the hose and you will not get condesation.

It is a very thin boundary layer between the hot air and cold air, a very thin layer. It is enough to do what you may think is imposible. Keep this in mind: cold will absorb more heat than heat can absorb cold. In other words, it is easier to contract (cool) something than it is to expand (heat) something.

Toilet tank sweats on the outside because the cold is on the inside. Hose will sweat on the inside because the cold is on the outside.

Covering the hose only aids the temp cycle. The sensor in the end of the hose, that little orange thingy sticking up, detects the temp and sends a signal back to the humidifier to trun the tank heater on or off. Same as insulation in your house. No insulation and your furnace works more often. More insulation and your furnace works less often.
04-23-2012 04:44 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #12
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
Steven Wrote:
Katie,(time=1301180444) Wrote:Wasn't there a problem or recall with the first production run of ClimateLine hoses?

Thinking-about
I think that the problem with the majority of the people who got the "defective hose" alert was that the temperature being used was too high or the hose was getting too hot because it was run under the covers, etc.

There is a separate topic on just that.

"I" would not put a hose cover on a Climateline hose !
04-23-2012 04:45 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #13
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
HeadGear Wrote:
jeffy1958,(time=1301200268) Wrote:
HeadGear Wrote:The hose normally heats up so as to keep the air temperature constant at, say 80 degrees.

You are absolutely correct. The "INSIDE" of the hose is heated. It is the outer skin that is in contact with the outside air that causes the air inside to cool enough to cause condensation.
HeadGear Wrote:That logic only applies if the heating in the hose fails - i.e. the hose is defective.
If the hose heater fails, the air inside the hose is the same temp as outside the hose and you will not get condesation.

It is a very thin boundary layer between the hot air and cold air, a very thin layer. It is enough to do what you may think is imposible. Keep this in mind: cold will absorb more heat than heat can absorb cold. In other words, it is easier to contract (cool) something than it is to expand (heat) something.

Toilet tank sweats on the outside because the cold is on the inside. Hose will sweat on the inside because the cold is on the outside.

Covering the hose only aids the temp cycle. The sensor in the end of the hose, that little orange thingy sticking up, detects the temp and sends a signal back to the humidifier to trun the tank heater on or off. Same as insulation in your house. No insulation and your furnace works more often. More insulation and your furnace works less often.
I think you miss the whole point! If the air in the hose stays at the set temperature, there is no condensation - period! The air has to cool to drop moisture! The function of the hose heating is to keep the air temperature constant. Feel the hose, it is heated, it is warm, the air is warm and stays warm. The heating coil is on the surface, spiralling along the whole length of the hose! If you heat your toilet tank, there will be no condensation, for that matter! Not a good idea to put on a hose cover on the ClimateLine, as Steven says!
04-23-2012 04:46 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #14
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
googull Wrote:I have adjusted the temp down to 68 with room at 60 but still finding many more drops of vapor in hose in the morning than expected. My understanding was inline with HeadGear. I thought the whole point of a heated hose was to match the water temp and deliver vapor with a constant temp all the way up the hose thus preventing the rainout. I am suspecting my hose is actually not heating. The only part of the hose that I put under my covers is the short piece on the face mask itself.

For those of you for which the Climateline hose is working, can you actually feel any heat from it by wrapping your hand around the hose? My hose is carefully clicked in place, it engages the CPAP machine such that AutoClimate is activated - but I don't feel any heat when I touch it with my hands during th night or in the morning. Preheat seems to want to "boil" the water - man it is hot! I've stopped using Preheat. And I've stopped using the RAMP function now that I have Autoset. Other than the humidity challenge, I must say I am sleeping better than ever and AHI stats continue to improve. Currently down to 0.6 with very little leak. I really appreciate this Autoset algorithm - what an amazing machine.
04-23-2012 04:47 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #15
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
HeadGear Wrote:
Quote:For those of you for which the Climateline hose is working, can you actually feel any heat from it by wrapping your hand around the hose?
Yes, definitely warm! No rain out whatsoever at the default setting of 27 C (80 F.) Room temperature is 18 C (64 F.) I have climate control set to auto. Last few days, I found that the default was a little too warm and promoted some nasal congestion. I tried a bit lower at 25 C (77 F) and that's just fine in all respects!
Eb
04-23-2012 04:47 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #16
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
Ltmedic66 Wrote:
googull,(time=1301277681) Wrote:I am suspecting my hose is actually not heating. The only part of the hose that I put under my covers is the short piece on the face mask itself.

For those of you for which the Climateline hose is working, can you actually feel any heat from it by wrapping your hand around the hose? My hose is carefully clicked in place, it engages the CPAP machine such that AutoClimate is activated - but I don't feel any heat when I touch it with my hands during th night or in the morning.
I do not have an S9, but my F&P has a heated hose. Yes, the hose feels slightly warm to the touch. Any part of the hose that ends up under the blanket or pillow is noticibly warm. Not sure about the S9, but F&P recomends that the heated hose not be covered by anything.

As mentioned earlier, I have never had even a drop of rainout in my hose, and I run it it lots of different settings, and have slept in some pretty cold rooms. I really think that something is not right if you are getting large amounts of condensation in your line.



odar56 Wrote:I also had the same problem when I first used the machine. I found that if you filled the tank to the max line I got rain out but if you fill it just below the max line the problem dissapears.
I also leave the temperature at 75 but I thing that is just a personal preference. LOVE THE MACHINE. :o
04-23-2012 04:48 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #17
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
Steven Wrote:
googull,(time=1301277681) Wrote:I have adjusted the temp down to 68 with room at 60 but still finding many more drops of vapor in hose in the morning than expected. My understanding was inline with HeadGear. I thought the whole point of a heated hose was to match the water temp and deliver vapor with a constant temp all the way up the hose thus preventing the rainout. I am suspecting my hose is actually not heating. The only part of the hose that I put under my covers is the short piece on the face mask itself.
Have you done as HeadGear & set it to [big]AUTO[/big]

That way it can adjust the hose heat to compensate for what the house temp is.

If your problem persists, a trip to the DME is in order.


HeadGear Wrote:Might be a good idea to set it and leave it on auto - if not already so! However, my understanding of auto, (quoted from the clinical manual,) is:
When set to Auto, Climate Control prevents rainout by maintaining 80% humidity in the delivered air. If Climate Control is set to Manual, Humidity Level and Heated Tube temperature can be set independently.
04-23-2012 04:50 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #18
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
googull Wrote:Yes, it has been on Auto all along - I know this because it only presents temp when the hose is attached. The humidity settings vanish.

It is most helpful to learn from the responders that the hose should be warm. Mine is definitely not warm and even with temp set down to 60 degrees last night I still was disturbed to clear the hose from water three times. I called the supplier today who was conveniently out of replacements. So I'll wait a few days for one to arrive. This forum has been really helpful in validating the core issue. I hope it is truly just the hose and not the Humidifier itself.

Of note, I figured out while clearing the hose last night that the reason the water doesn't drain back into the chamber is because the exit port doesn't drop directly to the chamber itself. It drops to a small compartment that quickly backs up with limited drainage back to the chamber. The hose water has to drain slightly uphill making it pretty much impossible to quickly drain the hose by simply lifting it over the chamber as I used to do with the S8 Elite.

Thank you all for your responses - your help is greatly appreciated.
04-23-2012 04:50 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #19
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
jeffy1958 Wrote:
HeadGear Wrote:I think you miss the whole point! If the air in the hose stays at the set temperature, there is no condensation - period!
Let me first address the first sentence - Some one with my EDUCATION and TECHNICAL background could take OFFENCE by that statement. But I'm man enough to know that you do not know me on a personal level, so I will forgive your ignorance!!!

As for the next part of that statement. [big][big]You are absolutely right [/big][/big]- if the air inside the hose stays 80 deg. there is no condensation. Just as if the water in the toilet tank stays 40 deg. there is no condensation. It is the air temp that the hose is in that causes the condensation. This is basic science, something you should have learned in School. Since you may have been "sick" that day of just didn't give a sh**, pay attention I'm going to make this as simple as possible.

The 60 deg air (your bedroom air temp.) that the hose is in cools the the hose itself. When the 80 deg air comes in contact with the 60 deg hose the air starts to rapidly contract, no longer able to hold the moisture already suspended in that air. Water start to collect on the "INSIDE" of the hose, where the air is. If you bring the two temps closer together there is no rapid contraction and the water (moisture) will stay suspended. If you cover the hose so the inside air temp heats the hose you have accoplished the same thing. Keeping the two temps closer to each other. Why do you think people cover their toilet tanks in the summer or have the option to fill them with warm water. It is the air outside the tank, coming in contact with the cold tank, that is rapidly contracting causing the moisture to fall out of suspension and cling to the tank until it becomes to heavy and "RAINS OUT" on your bathroom floor.

HeadGear Wrote:The function of the hose heating is to keep the air temperature constant.

Here is where my "TECHNICAL" ability comes into play. I am an Industrial Mechanic, have been one since leaving the Military as an Aircraft Mechanic in 1991. I have the great ability to trouble shoot and repair complex problems of all sorts. I also have a very strong electrical background.

So... I brought my trusty Fluke (Electrical Testing Meter) home and went to work.

I was unable to find a Technical Manual for the S9 AutoSet, the one that would have all the schematics in it. So if anyone has one, or knows how to get one, let me know and you may be able to prove me wrong on this next part. What you think the coil around the hose does, it doesn't. It is not a heating coil!!! It is three very small gage wires that carry the 4-20ma signal to the humidifier to control the heater that is underneath your water tank. That little orange thingy at the end of the hose. That is an RTD - Resistive Thermal Device. An RTD is two dissimilar pieces of metal that are in contact with each other. The three wires are: one to each piece of metal and a common, not ground - two very different things. Again you are going to get another basic science lesson. When two dissimilar metals are in contact with each other and they start to expand and contract, they both do so at a very differnt rate. It is this difference that creates a very small current which is measured in Milliamps (ma), one millionth of an amp. Hence the 4-20 signal. That coil around the hose is not a heating coil. I really do not think the manufactures would not want to run the larger currents, the type need for heating, through the hose to possibly electricute some one. It only take 0.5 amps to kill you. Voltage will not kill you Amperage will. Volt is pressure Amp is flow. But then I'm getting into the therory of electricity.

Bottom line: The hose is not heated the tank is. The coil only carries a signal to turn the heater on or off depending upon the demand. How I know this? My Fluke can detect Amps, Volts, and Temps. I rigged a three pin adaptor for an old hose I had and connected it to my S9. Taking one hell-of-a-chance if I was wrong, not having the schematics.

As for the climate lines failing being under covers. Here again is where my backround comes into play. I have spent many years dealing with RTD's. They are very fragile and delicate sensing equipment. They don't fail so-so. They fail hard as we say. They either work or they don't and when they don't they will send an off-the-wall-outrageous signal. They usualy dive to the absoulte bottom of the temp scale, say -400 deg. So your tank thinks it needs to keep heating to bring the temp up. So you can see how that would cause a problem. No control on a tank trying to achieve 80 deg. when the sensor says it's -400!!! My guess, and it's only a guess, is the company may have had a rash of bad RTD's. That has been known to happen.

If you keep the room temp and the INSIDE hose temp closer together, you will not get rainout. For me the room temp is 66 and my hose temp is 70. NO CONDESATION.

HeadGear Wrote:The heating coil is on the surface, spiralling along the whole length of the hose!
I don't think so - not according to the readings my Fluke gave me. But not having a Technical Manual I can only be 90% sure. I would need to see the schematics. But here's something to ponder. Why would you need to heat the tank and the hose? A bit of a redundancy if you as me.
04-23-2012 04:51 PM
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Posts: 9,973
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Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #20
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
wonderboy Wrote:I'm confused, but who knows, you could be right. According to ResMed on this site,

http://www.resmed.com/us/products/s9_ser...nc=dealers

they say it's a the "Climate LIne HEATED tube". So is it heated or not? Or does it just "control the heat" to the tube?

You'd think that if they call it a "heated tube", the tube IS heated, not just the water container. Thinking-about
04-23-2012 04:52 PM
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