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S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #21
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
jeffy1958 Wrote:I know for an absolute fact you cannot have control voltage (low) and working voltage (high) in the same run. Granted its been about 6 years since attending a Code Class. I do not think that has change. Besides there are not enough wires in there to do both the sensing and heating.

wonderboy Wrote:Climate Line HEATED tube".


My guess is the heated part comes from the heated air your humidifier tank generates. You can check this out by pre-warming your humidifier. After it warms up, shut it down, take the tank out and feel the bottom.
04-23-2012 04:52 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #22
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
Katie Wrote:So if that's the case I don't need to worry much about putting my blanket over the hose and overheating it, right? Since it would "sense" the heat at the tip of the hose and adjust it right, maybe?
04-23-2012 04:53 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #23
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
jeffy1958 Wrote:Okay - I'll address the Climate Line Failure issue based on my past expeiences with similar things. My guess, and let me say, my educated guess is this. There was a problem with the sensor in the end of the hose failing causing the tank to try an keep up. You would have been rudely awaken by overheated air from a tank heater trying to keep up.


I worked in a factory, years ago, that had over 300 RTD sensors throughout the plant. I was made the "king" of these sensors. I ordered over 50 replacements, We could not afford to be down because of any one of those going bad. After installing about 5-7 of the new ones and they all failed, I sent the lot back to the company and recieved new ones the very next day, (was not charged overnight shipping) with an apology and an explanation.

I think you all are under the assumption the heating is done in the hose like an electric blanket. I am 90% sure that is not the case. I still need to see the Technical Manual and the drawings and schematics that would confirm this.

To answer your question. No I do not believe you have to worry. If the sensor fails your air to the mask will me warmer. I do not believe ResMed would make a system heater that would deliver a fatal dose of hot air for you to inhale. I can just about guarantee, and I emphasize just about, there is some sort of safety on the tank itself that will shut down if over heating should occur. There has to be an over temp limit sensor on the tank. It would be suicide for ResMed not to have that form of safety. As a Mechanic I live by just two simple codes:

[big]1.) Anything / Everything electrical - WILL FAIL.[/big]

[big]2.) Anything / Everything mechanical - WILL FAIL[/big]


Just one failure, one accident, one death, one law suite and ResMed is out of business!!! And possibly someone goes to prison. So I am sure there are plenty of safeties and redundancies when dealing with a machine used for the respiratory system.

[center]Again - let me make this perfectly clear. I will not be 100% sure unless I see the the schematics of this machine.[/center]

I am not yet brave enough to take apart mine and do a little reverse engineering!!! If someone has one that doesn't work, that I doubt, I would be glad to take it off your hands.
04-23-2012 04:53 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #24
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
Ltmedic66 Wrote:
Quote:So if that's the case I don't need to worry much about putting my blanket over the hose and overheating it, right? Since it would "sense" the heat at the tip of the hose and adjust it right, maybe?

The Resmed web site and the S9 manual both refer to the Climateline tubing as a heated tube. The manual also states that you should NOT cover the Climateline with bed sheets or other material. So, I feel pretty confident that it is a heated tube, which would be how it controls rainout.

While I don't have an S9, I do have a Fisher and Paykel 604 with a heated tube. F&P also says to avoid covering their heated tube with anything. I do notice that if a section of the tube gets covered by sheets or a pillow, it gets a little warmer than the rest of the tube. Not hot, but warm. I've never had a problem with this, but perhaps it causes some minor heat stress that will shorten the life of the tubing.

With my heated tube, I have never had any issues with rainout, or even noticable condesation, inside the tube. I've even had the humidity turned up so high that water droplets formed on my nose (not recomended, I had to fumble with the controls in the middle of the night). Even then, the tubing stayed dry.
04-23-2012 04:54 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #25
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
HeadGear Wrote:
jeffy1958,(time=1301613783) Wrote:
HeadGear Wrote:I think you miss the whole point! (BTW, this is misquoted, you added the nuance of bold and underlined type!) If the air in the hose stays at the set temperature, there is no condensation - period!
Let me first address the first sentence - Some one with my EDUCATION and TECHNICAL background could take OFFENCE by that statement. But I'm man enough to know that you do not know me on a personal level, so I will forgive your ignorance!!!

As for the next part of that statement. [big][big]You are absolutely right [/big][/big]- if the air inside the hose stays 80 deg. there is no condensation. Just as if the water in the toilet tank stays 40 deg. there is no condensation. It is the air temp that the hose is in that causes the condensation. This is basic science, something you should have learned in School. Since you may have been "sick" that day of just didn't give a sh**, pay attention I'm going to make this as simple as possible. ...
I know that you are mistaken. The tube is heated, not just the humidifier tank! There are two stages, (1) the H5i humidfier heats the water in the tank in order to generate humidity, (2) the hose is warmed from one end to the other to maintain a constant air temperature. Both can be set independently or set to auto where the hose temperature is selected and the humidity in the delivered air is automatically kept at 80%. Conversely, if you are using a standard hose, instead of the ClimateLine, the tank heater is the sole source of humidity and temperature. In that instance, a hose cover will provide insulation and maintain the air temperature high enough that moisture is not precipitated - to a point, of course. Obviously, the heated hose is the superior system but takes more power.

Please do not personalize, this is just an informational discussion and we can all be mistaken from time to time! No problem, eh? Shall we be friends?
Eb
04-23-2012 04:55 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #26
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
googull Wrote:I got a second hose and it resulted in identical rainout problem. So I got a replacement Hi5 humidifier - Viola! No more rain out. Unless my hose(s) are also defective my experience now is inline with jeffy1958. My hose no longer rains out, but it certainly doesn't get warm to the touch of my hand as it would if electrically heated. In fact, at 80F Autoclimate the experience is a bit dryer in my throat in the morning than desired. Also, I am feeling the underside of the chamber each morning to find it lukewarm with little water missing from the chamber itself. I fill to the lowest marker line on the yellow dipstick and find the level falls less than half the distance to the bottom of the dipstick - very little water actually used. So either my hose is defective or it is as jeffy1958 describes. There is only a sensor at the end of the tube. I was worried about the amperage needed to heat such a hose being so close my face. It also makes sense that the three wire connection is merely sensor signals, especially given the wiring gauge and the measured voltages. If the hose were truly heated to 80F I could feel it and the water chamber should be 80F in the morning as well. Perhaps my hoses are defective but i dont think so as I've tried both with the same results I am curios to hear if those using Autoclimate are finding 80F water in the chamber in the morning and burning through much more than I described without rainout.

Headgear, I am curious where you are able to control temp in two places. In manual mode I see a temp and humidity setting, not two temp settings. This would suggest that the sensor in the tube measures humidity not heat and supports the idea that the control system uses this value to adjust the temp in the water chamber. It is confusing though that the label on the temp control reads "HEATED TUBE".
04-23-2012 04:55 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #27
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
HeadGear Wrote:Your hose is powered through the humidifier and temperature regulation is integrated with the humidifier control, based on humidity produced. A defective humidifier could make the hose inoperable.

My hose is definitely heated and becomes obviously warm when first the machine is first turned on. Later on you are less likely to feel heat directly as it settles down to the target value. As far as the number of controls go. There are two, and in auto (really semi-auto) mode there is one. The humidity control sets the heated humidifier and the temperature control sets the heated hose. In semi-auto, the temperature sets the heated hose and the heated humidifier sets itself to produce 80% humidity. If it were that the humidifier, only, were heated and not the hose then there would be no way to have independent control over heat and humidity. Obviously, heating the water also imparts heat to the air, but that heat would not be retained going up the hose. I'll quote from the manual for the ClimateLine:

Climate Control Auto
The recommended (default) setting for Climate Control is Auto mode. In Auto
mode you have the ability to adjust air temperature (61-86°F/16-30°C) depending
on preference. Based on your selected air temperature, Climate Control
automatically adjusts the humidifier output to maintain a constant, comfortable
humidity level of 80% relative humidity while protecting against rainout. In Auto
mode the default air temperature is set to 80°F (27°C).

Climate Control Manual
If enabled by the clinician, Climate Control can also be set to
Manual. In this mode, air temperature and humidity can be
set independently, providing you greater flexibility but without
the rainout protection guaranteed in Auto mode. In this mode,
air temperature (61-86°F/16-30°C) and humidity (0-6) can
be set independently. If rainout occurs, either increase air
temperature or decrease the humidity setting.

I hope this information sorts out the confusion.
(See the next post.)
04-23-2012 04:56 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #28
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
HeadGear Wrote:Googull,
Another thought is that the humidifier, being defective, was simply overheating. In that case the tube air temperature would not have been high enough to avoid rainout.
Here are the specs for the ClimateLine hose and H5i temperature cut outs:

Air tubing technical specifications
ClimateLine air tubing Flexible plastic and electrical components,
6'5" (1.98 m), 15 mm inner diameter
SlimLine air tubing Flexible plastic, 6' (1.83 m), 15 mm inner diameter
Standard air tubing Flexible plastic, 6'6" (2 m), 19 mm inner diameter
Heated tubing temperature cut-out ≤ 106°F (≤ 41°C)

H5i technical specifications
Maximum heater plate temperature 150°F (65°C)
Temperature cut-out 165°F (74°C)
Maximum gas temperature ≤ 106°F (≤ 41°C)
Nominal dimensions (L x W x H) Docking station and water tub: 6.0" x 5.7" x 3.4"
(153 mm x 145 mm x 86 mm)
04-23-2012 04:56 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #29
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
jeffy1958 Wrote:To All...

Tomorrow me and my machine are taking a 1 hour ride, (not a 3 hour tour), up north to visit a friend of mine. I worked with Scotty for 3+ years designing and building the circuitry for robotic welders. I helped him set up the lab in his basement for testing and repairing circuit boards. I will get to the bottom of this if it kills me.

I have read all the data there is concerning the "Heated Hose" and how it works. It goes against what my trusty Fluke was telling me. Also what I know about electric circuits. There are not enough conductors in the hose to do the heating and the sensing.

googull Wrote:I was worried about the amperage needed to heat such a hose being so close my face.

There wasn't enough amps to heat anything, acording to my meter. I was reading the sensor amps, 4-20 milliamps. The readings were actually 6-8 ma. Keeping in mind that is 1 millionth part of an amp.

HeadGear; I think, I'm confused.
HeadGear Wrote:...we can all be mistaken from time to time! No problem, eh? Shall we be friends?
Let me apologize for getting a bit passionate.

No problem and absolutely YES we can be friends.
04-23-2012 04:57 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

Administrators

Posts: 9,973
Joined: Feb 2012

Machine: PR System One REMstar Auto (DS560)
Mask Type: Nasal pillows
Mask Make & Model: ResMed Mirage Swift II
Humidifier: none
CPAP Pressure: 12.5 - 18.5 cmH20 (auto range)
CPAP Software: SleepyHead

Other Comments: Have diabetes Type II

Sex: Male
Location: Illinois, USA

Post: #30
RE: S9 serious rainout using Auto Climate System
googull Wrote:Another related question for the S9 Auto users. How much water do you burn each night and at what settings? I am used to almost burning up the water in my S8 chamber (conditioned on environment) but with the S9 I appear to be burning relatively little. I fill S9 to 1/4" above bottom of the yellow stick manual settings 5.5 80F with ambient 70F and find I am left with enough water in the morning 6.5-7 hrs to use for at least one more night. Autoset climate seemed to burn even less and left me feeling dry. So I am curious what level of water consumption others observe.



HeadGear Wrote:With aggressive humidity settings, I use about 1/2 the water on the S9. Consumption on the S8 seemed about the same. It may be deceptive because the humidifier tubs have different shape and size. However, I don't feel like making a "measured" comparison - don't want to sleep with the S8 auto for even a night (without EPR) when I got the S9 auto and EPR. (You get hooked on that EPR awfully fast!)
04-23-2012 04:58 PM
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