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Sleep Debt
#31
(03-08-2013, 07:48 PM)Ugly Wrote:
(03-08-2013, 04:09 PM)robgb Wrote: So I've heard a lot of talk about sleep debt and some that have suggested the idea is nonsense. Nevertheless, I tend to believe it's true.

Wait until people start discussing the interest rates!

Quote:My question is how long does it take to work off your sleep debt.

Okay let's be serious for a moment. Some concepts are hard to fathom for those of us who aren't "experts" and even then having tons of knowledge and references about a subject doesn't make it real. Best example: Star Trek. Despite all the technical manuals and dictionaries (eg. Klingon) that I possess doesn't actually make any of it more real. And so it shall be with sleep debt. Now, there actually may be some aspect of reality to it. But I don't personally believe that if a person is on a diet of 8 hours sleep per day and they sleep six that it will even itself out by sleeping 10 hours the next night. It is that definition of sleep "debt" that I dispute. Sleep all you want. Even go into a coma and you may not "catch up" on sleep lost. And having more sleep than "required" doesn't mean you have that much extra energy to use against another night. Eg sleep ten hours one night doesn't mean you can get away with six the following night (mind you I'm using 8 hours as an arbitrary figure and it's likely that every person is different.) So as an "exact science" I would say sleep debt is a crock. Oh there's some substance to it but I doubt sleep "deprivation" can be remedied by evening (as in making even, not between afternoon and night) out the sleep/non-sleep hours, even if you charge "interest".

It's important to note that I am not a doctor or a professional and everything I say is of my own warped opinion that you can ponder if you wish but don't take it as advice. It's my own personal opinion.
Rolling laugh

Huhsign
Wow. Can u give me the cliff notes.

Sleep-well

Muddpa
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#32
OK, there have been a lot of studies of "sleep debt."

Have you seen any studies of "apnea debt" in terms of how many new CPAPers need more sleep when they first start CPAP, how long it lasts, whether they suffer fatigue for a while, etc.

It seems the "average" CPAPer gets quick improvement. We get a lot of people who feel worse shortly after starting CPAP. It seems that would be a good thing to study statistically and and see if a cause and treatment can be found.
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#33
I'd still like to hear an explanation of how the evidence indicates there's no such thing as sleep debt.
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#34
(03-10-2013, 09:08 PM)Muddpa Wrote:
(03-08-2013, 07:48 PM)Ugly Wrote: Okay let's be serious for a moment. Some concepts are hard to fathom for those of us who aren't "experts" and even then having tons of knowledge and references about a subject doesn't make it real. Best example: Star Trek. Despite all the technical manuals and dictionaries (eg. Klingon) that I possess doesn't actually make any of it more real. And so it shall be with sleep debt. Now, there actually may be some aspect of reality to it. But I don't personally believe that if a person is on a diet of 8 hours sleep per day and they sleep six that it will even itself out by sleeping 10 hours the next night. It is that definition of sleep "debt" that I dispute. Sleep all you want. Even go into a coma and you may not "catch up" on sleep lost. And having more sleep than "required" doesn't mean you have that much extra energy to use against another night. Eg sleep ten hours one night doesn't mean you can get away with six the following night (mind you I'm using 8 hours as an arbitrary figure and it's likely that every person is different.) So as an "exact science" I would say sleep debt is a crock. Oh there's some substance to it but I doubt sleep "deprivation" can be remedied by evening (as in making even, not between afternoon and night) out the sleep/non-sleep hours, even if you charge "interest".

Huhsign
Wow. Can u give me the cliff notes.

Some people will show off by using fancy terminology but that doesn't mean they're any smarter than you.
Sleep "debt" implies you have to "make up" for all the hours lost - many, including myself don't believe this.
Example if you stay awake all night (say maybe New Year's Eve) and you usually sleep 8 hours a night. You don't have to do 16 hours the following night to make up for it. It's not a true debt.
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#35
(03-11-2013, 07:03 AM)archangle Wrote: Have you seen any studies of "apnea debt" in terms of how many new CPAPers need more sleep when they first start CPAP, how long it lasts, whether they suffer fatigue for a while, etc.

Yes. Part of how it was determined that CPAP had therapeutic benefit in the first place.

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#36
Smile 
I have read a lot in this board about sleep dept. I personally think it is like a bad credit card. No matter how much you pay on it, it just seems to keep building up. I have been on cpap for over six years now and even though I feel much better than I did when I started, I still have plenty of days where I may get 6-7 hours of good sleep and then after I turn my machine off, I immediately take a nap for about an hour. If I didn't take that nap, I would be dead tired by noon time. My doctor tells me that sometimes, that's just the way it is. I also believe that cpap is not a cure. It is just another way to help you live a little longer and enjoy your life a little better. Sleep Well and enjoy your cpap.
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#37
Daniel,

CPAP is not considered a cure, never has been, but a therapy. If you don't use it, your symptoms come back. It is a symptom suppressor, nothing else.It does not treat the cause, in that it does not create, through its actions, a permanent cure of the cause.

Your mileage may vary. Some people sleep brilliantly on CPAP, others need to do a bit more on their own, others respond badly, alas. Consider yourself lucky that you are amongst those who get something out of it.
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#38
I agree, I think. I think I can only catch up on my so called sleep debt when I am in eternal sleep. I don't know if we sleep once we are in paradise aka Heaven. I do believe in Heaven and not as a myth, but that it is real. I figure once I am there in a new perfect body, all will be wonderful. Until then, I am in this imperfect body and I do the best I can for it.... most of the time anyway.
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#39
(03-09-2013, 11:49 AM)robgb Wrote: Well, not being a scientist, I can't really say whether or not sleep debt is real. I do know that there is dispute over the concept in the scientific community. But then there are those who say man made global warming is a crock despite the majority of the scientific community saying it isn't.

As a layman, I can see the validity in the concept of sleep debt, but I'd be the last to proclaim with any certainty whether or not it's true.

It would be interesting knowing where you get this notion. Scientific American reports that the majority of scientists believe there is global warming, not that it is man made. The life of this planet is cyclical, our current north pole has not always been where it now resides.

As far as sleep debt, compare that to an issue like influenza (or some other disease), you may have it for several weeks, but it doesn't take the same length of time to get back to normal.

This sleep debt theory kinda' reminds me of sex, you can get thirty days behind, and it only takes a few minutes to catch-up.

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#40
I could be wrong but what about the fact that sleep apnea (being deprived of oxygen for a short time multiple times an hour) can cause problems and maybe kill brain cells??? And can put you into a depression and all sorts of other things it makes sense that with just about anything it takes time to get there so you cant expect to get back right away it will take time to get back to normal even if your curing and fixing your "sleep debt" you have still been living this way (depressed tired etc.) for such a long time it will take a little while to feel better Smile At least that's what im expecting... im still waiting to start my recovery.... but I know that if I expect to feel better and focus on paying a sleep debt I will make myself feel bad and insecure worrying why I don't feel 100 percent yet which I know is an easy trap to fall into
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