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Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
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retired_guy Offline

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Post: #51
RE: Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
(01-30-2014 01:40 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  
(01-30-2014 12:11 PM)PaytonA Wrote:  Water softening. Water softening does not reduce the mineral content of the water it just makes it more soluble so that one does not get as much scale formation from it.

That's not my understanding. Commercial and residential water softeners use the ion-exchange process you described earlier in your post. The water passes over beads of resin that attract the hard water ions (calcium and magnesium). Periodically a salt water solution is used to clean off those beads, exchanging the calcium and magnesium ions for sodium ions.

I realize that there are other types of water treatment systems that behave the way you described, and they do refer to them as water softeners also.

My understanding is that they are only marginally effective, and that ion exchange is still the gold standard for water softening.

Having owned a water softener before, sometimes I wish we lived in a hard-water area so I could justify getting one again. Gotta love the soft water they produce.
01-30-2014 03:26 PM
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PaytonA Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
(01-30-2014 01:40 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  
(01-30-2014 12:11 PM)PaytonA Wrote:  Water softening. Water softening does not reduce the mineral content of the water it just makes it more soluble so that one does not get as much scale formation from it.

That's not my understanding. Commercial and residential water softeners use the ion-exchange process you described earlier in your post. The water passes over beads of resin that attract the hard water ions (calcium and magnesium). Periodically a salt water solution is used to clean off those beads, exchanging the calcium and magnesium ions for sodium ions.

I realize that there are other types of water treatment systems that behave the way you described, and they do refer to them as water softeners also.

My understanding is that they are only marginally effective, and that ion exchange is still the gold standard for water softening.

First, please ignore the paragraph that I wrote about demineralization. I guess age is truly catching up with me and I had forgotten some of my water chemistry.

The water softener that you describe uses an ion exchange resin. It is probably a cation exchange resin that replaces calcium and magnesium carbonates which have limited solubility in water with sodium carbonate which is very soluble in water so it does not tend to precipitate out nearly as easily as the calcium and magnesium carbonates. The resin becomes saturated with calcium and magnesium and then is recharged with a salt water solution which now does the reverse exchange.

Ion exchange does work great for softening water but it does not reduce the mineral content in the manner in which it is used for water softening, but changes its character to something that does not cause some of the problems that hard water minerals do. The ion exchange that is done commercially replaces ions like calcium and magnesium with hydrogen ions (H+) and ions like the carbonate ion with hydroxyl ions (OH-). So all of the mineral salts get replaced with HOH more commonly known as H2O. These commercial ion exchange resins must be recharged with strong acids and bases. This is why domestic water softening systems either use sodium chloride to recharge or must be taken back to the provider to be recharged.

Distillation, reverse osmosis and RO's sister system nano filtration,as well as good mixed bed de-ionization all remove minerals from the water.

Best Regards,

PaytonA
01-30-2014 05:02 PM
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VegasPier Offline

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Post: #53
RE: Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
(01-26-2014 11:36 AM)Sleepster Wrote:  When I wash my hose and mask, I also wash the water chamber. All in the same hot soapy water. Then I let them air dry.

How do you wash your hose?

Cheers, Vegaspier
02-03-2014 01:28 AM
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me50 Offline

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Post: #54
RE: Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
I use dawn dishwashing liquid and vinegar to wash my hose. I let that run through my hose after letting it soak in the solution for at least 30 minutes. Then I rinse it out and let it air dry. You are going to get a variety of answers. Find which one works best for you and go with it. YMMV

EDIT: I just read where Resmed says not to use vinegar on the parts. Maybe they mean straight vinegar, who knows?
(This post was last modified: 02-03-2014 01:16 PM by me50.)
02-03-2014 01:33 AM
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Sleepster Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
I use a hose brush and hot soapy water. If you don't have a brush just swish.

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02-03-2014 06:56 AM
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Peter_C Offline

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Post: #56
RE: Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
I always finish a hose or water chamber wash with vinegar. It's like bleach on clothes, only for dishes and PAP stuff (I also run a cup of vinegar through the dishwasher monthly as well).

*I* am not a DOCTOR or any type of Health Care Professional. My thoughts/suggestions/ideas are strictly only my opinions.

"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you. Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your Soul, the other for your Freedom."
02-03-2014 10:22 AM
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PaytonA Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
(02-03-2014 10:22 AM)Peter_C Wrote:  I always finish a hose or water chamber wash with vinegar. It's like bleach on clothes, only for dishes and PAP stuff (I also run a cup of vinegar through the dishwasher monthly as well).

I presume that you use it on your salad too.Dielaughing

Best Regards,

PaytonA
02-03-2014 12:40 PM
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ThatOtherGuy Offline

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Post: #58
RE: Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
I use tap water myself, changed daily, occasionally rinsing out the tub before a refill. Washing is weekly using an antibacterial hand soap for mask, hose and tub, rinsed with fresh water and then hung to air dry. I also use a water soluble eucalyptus oil (very diluted) to clean the tub to prevent bacterial issues, the oil is also able to be used for inhalers, so I also occasionally put a very small amount in the tub (0.25ml) which helps with anti bacterial application in the hose and also clears the sinuses. :grin:
02-03-2014 07:17 PM
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Sleepster Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
(01-30-2014 05:02 PM)PaytonA Wrote:  The water softener that you describe uses an ion exchange resin. It is probably a cation exchange resin that replaces calcium and magnesium carbonates which have limited solubility in water with sodium carbonate which is very soluble in water so it does not tend to precipitate out nearly as easily as the calcium and magnesium carbonates. The resin becomes saturated with calcium and magnesium and then is recharged with a salt water solution which now does the reverse exchange.

If you purchase a new water softener of the type we're discussing here, the beads of resin have no sodium ions attached. They attract and remove the hard water minerals (calcium and magnesium ions) from the water.

Once the resin beads become saturated with calcium and magnesium they are replaced with sodium ions, but while this is happening the water softener is out of service. This is the so-called recharge phase. Most of the sodium ions are flushed down the drain, only a small percentage of them are left on the resin beads.

Most of the hard water minerals are removed from the water, and only a few of them are replaced.

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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
02-09-2014 11:17 AM
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PaytonA Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
(02-09-2014 11:17 AM)Sleepster Wrote:  
(01-30-2014 05:02 PM)PaytonA Wrote:  The water softener that you describe uses an ion exchange resin. It is probably a cation exchange resin that replaces calcium and magnesium carbonates which have limited solubility in water with sodium carbonate which is very soluble in water so it does not tend to precipitate out nearly as easily as the calcium and magnesium carbonates. The resin becomes saturated with calcium and magnesium and then is recharged with a salt water solution which now does the reverse exchange.

If you purchase a new water softener of the type we're discussing here, the beads of resin have no sodium ions attached. They attract and remove the hard water minerals (calcium and magnesium ions) from the water.

Once the resin beads become saturated with calcium and magnesium they are replaced with sodium ions, but while this is happening the water softener is out of service. This is the so-called recharge phase. Most of the sodium ions are flushed down the drain, only a small percentage of them are left on the resin beads.

Most of the hard water minerals are removed from the water, and only a few of them are replaced.

First, calcium and magnesium ions are not minerals they are ions which form a part of a mineral. Calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate would be the minerals of interest to water softening.

Second, while it is true that much of the sodium chloride (salt) that is charged into a water softener is washed down the drain, it is only because the discharge is surplus to the recharge. All of the sodium and magnesium ions that are removed from the water are replaced by sodium ions. That means that the former calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate is now all sodium carbonate. Therefore the calcium and magnesium ions have been removed by converting the minerals to a sodium carbonate mineral.

For anyone who thinks that this may not be correct, I have attached an article from University of Nebraska on Water Softening. The information on the second page under Treatment Principles explains how water softeners work.

Well the article is too big and I can not extract the portion of interest so I will give the link-http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/live/g1491/build/g1491.pdf

Best Regards,

PaytonA
02-09-2014 02:18 PM
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