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Speaking of Distilled vs. Tap Water.
#61
There's some good info there. I haven't gotten around to reading all of it yet, but I see that I was mistaken about the resin beads. Apparently new resin beads do already have sodium ions attached, so sodium is introduced into the water supply even in the case of a new resin bed.

I think, though, that a big part of this discussion is semantics. Here's a quote from the article:

"Household water softeners are ion exchange devices. Ion exchange involves removing the hardness ions calcium and magnesium and replacing them with non-hardness ions, typically sodium [...]"

Notice that the verbs "remove" and "replace" are both being used to describe the process. Yes, it's true that the hardness ions are being replaced, but it's also true that they are being removed.

So while it may be incomplete to simply say that they are being removed, I don't believe it is in any way inaccurate. I also don't see how the simplification would lead anyone astray. The central issue here is that the minerals leave a deposit in the water chamber that is undesirable. Water softening solves that problem.

Yes, the water softening does introduce sodium into the water, and that is a dietary concern. I don't see how it's a concern for the care of the CPAP humidifier tank, or how it could adversely affect the CPAP user.

I could be wrong here, in which case I'm missing a point.

Sleepster
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#62
FYI, CPAP humidifier water
http://www.apneaboard.com/wiki/index.php...fier_water
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#63
(02-09-2014, 04:33 PM)Sleepster Wrote: There's some good info there. I haven't gotten around to reading all of it yet, but I see that I was mistaken about the resin beads. Apparently new resin beads do already have sodium ions attached, so sodium is introduced into the water supply even in the case of a new resin bed.

I think, though, that a big part of this discussion is semantics. Here's a quote from the article:

"Household water softeners are ion exchange devices. Ion exchange involves removing the hardness ions calcium and magnesium and replacing them with non-hardness ions, typically sodium [...]"

Notice that the verbs "remove" and "replace" are both being used to describe the process. Yes, it's true that the hardness ions are being replaced, but it's also true that they are being removed.

So while it may be incomplete to simply say that they are being removed, I don't believe it is in any way inaccurate. I also don't see how the simplification would lead anyone astray. The central issue here is that the minerals leave a deposit in the water chamber that is undesirable. Water softening solves that problem.

Yes, the water softening does introduce sodium into the water, and that is a dietary concern. I don't see how it's a concern for the care of the CPAP humidifier tank, or how it could adversely affect the CPAP user.

I could be wrong here, in which case I'm missing a point.

I am sorry if I seem to have pushed the point harder than might seem necessary but in my experience it can make a difference to people in ways that might not be immediately apparent. The difference being that while the bad acting ions are removed and replaced by nicer ions, the water still has the same amount of mineral content that it started out with.

This distinction can make a major difference to people who keep fresh water tropical fish but let me give an example of how it might make a difference to those of us who use humidified PAP. If one starts the night with a humidifier tank full of nicely softened water and by morning the tank is close to empty. All of the minerals are still present but much less water and if the change in volume is drastic enough there will be some mineral deposits left in the tank. They are easier to get rid of but they will be there.

Let's take this a step further and say that, like some of us, this person just tops off because he or she thinks that the process of softening has removed the minerals. Now you have the full load of minerals from the first night plus the minerals from the top off. As you can see, the amount of minerals in the water would just continue to build and more mineral build-up would occur in the tank. Obviously, not as much build-up as with the original hard water and easier to get rid of but I do believe that it is worthwhile for everyone to have an accurate understanding of what water softening actually does.

Best Regards,

PaytonA
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#64
(02-10-2014, 11:43 AM)PaytonA Wrote: This distinction can make a major difference to people who keep fresh water tropical fish but let me give an example of how it might make a difference to those of us who use humidified PAP. If one starts the night with a humidifier tank full of nicely softened water and by morning the tank is close to empty. All of the minerals are still present but much less water and if the change in volume is drastic enough there will be some mineral deposits left in the tank. They are easier to get rid of but they will be there.

That's a valid point. As an aside, it's also an issue when watering plants and lawns

This discussion has made me realize that I had a fundamental misunderstanding of the water softening process. I was under the impression that the ion exchange process went on only during the recharge phase, and that the sodium that's introduced into the water supply is just a residue left over from the fact that the final wash of the resin can't remove every last bit of the sodium.

I see now that it's a one-on-one exchange of a hard water mineral (containing a hard water ion such as calcium or magnesium) for a sodium mineral (containing a sodium ion).

I'm going to do some more editing of the Wiki article.
Sleepster
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#65
I have a reverse osmosis filter kit (that includes two carbon filters, too) under the kitchen sink that filters the water going to a separate faucet and also to the ice maker. The water has passed through the water softener before it gets to this filter, so it does remove most of those sodium minerals from the water that we use for drinking and a lot of the cooking.

When I use this water in my CPAP tank I notice no difference between it and the tap water that has passed only through the softener.

I empty the tank every day and let it dry. I wash it with soap and water once a week or so.

Mineral deposits in the tank, in addition to making it look cruddy, can also interfere with the effectiveness of the heating element.
Sleepster
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#66
In our area a gallon of distilled water costs 88 cents. Why even debate whether or not you should use it?
"Sometimes the magic works . . . and sometimes it doesn't" -- Chief Dan George in the movie Little Big Man
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#67
(02-11-2014, 02:39 PM)Zorki1c Wrote: In our area a gallon of distilled water costs 88 cents. Why even debate whether or not you should use it?

Small price to pay to pamper your pap'er Smile

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#68
In many places distilled water is much more expensive. Some people worry about germs growing in a water bottle that's been opened previously. For me, it's more convenient to use my filtered and softened tap water. Same is true when using my sinus rinse kit.
Sleepster
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
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#69
(02-11-2014, 04:54 PM)Sleepster Wrote: In many places distilled water is much more expensive.
I was in Woolworth (biggest supermarket chain in Australia) this morning doing some shopping, there was some 2 ltr of demineralized water found in laundry isle, the label say to use in steam irons/mops, batteries, etc ...
not suitable for drinking and not to use in therapeutic devices ... guess CPAP is a therapeutic device
I,m not going round all the stores looking for distilled water but will be checking other stores
Where do Australian buy their distilled water, I suppose distilleries don,t sell distilled water

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#70
(02-11-2014, 09:24 PM)zonk Wrote:
(02-11-2014, 04:54 PM)Sleepster Wrote: In many places distilled water is much more expensive.
I was in Woolworth (biggest supermarket chain in Australia) this morning doing some shopping, there was some 2 ltr of demineralized water found in laundry isle, the label say to use in steam irons/mops, batteries, etc ...
not suitable for drinking and not to use in therapeutic devices ... guess CPAP is a therapeutic device
I,m not going round all the stores looking for distilled water but will be checking other stores
Where do Australian buy their distilled water, I suppose distilleries don,t sell distilled water

I'm in Australia as well and in our other major grocery chain Coles have demineralized water too and it says not for drinking or therapeutic devices as well.

I'm not a Doctor but a fan of The Doctor. any views,comments etc are my own


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