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[Treatment] Defeating bumper belt -- more or less over time? (CPAP Alternatives)
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Post: #11
RE: Defeating bumper belt -- more or less over time?
(08-02-2013 10:08 PM)Don in Austin Wrote:  I am a little puzzled about OSA occurrences which cause heart damage while not dropping oxygen level

It's because of the adrenaline rush you get when your body jolts you out of sleep after an apnea event. Too many of those adrenaline rushes is not good for your heart. The blood O2 levels don't need to fall below 90% for you to have such a jolt to your system - all that needs to happen is for you to have an apnea event.

I understand your frustrations. I'm simply pointing out that you have no independently verifiable or non-subjective evidence that your two non-CPAP therapy options are actually reducing your apnea or hypopnea events significantly (lowering your AHI).

Most of the studies for oral devices have been done by those who have a vested financial interest in selling oral devices. Or they have too small of a a sampling to be statistically significant. For the handful of studies that are somewhat objective, they never conclude that AHI is reduced substantially by using an oral device - usually only slightly reduced. Nowhere near the success rate that CPAP has.

If you're relying upon a dentist who's major solution is an oral device, unfortunately many times it's a pre-determined solution looking for a problem to solve. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Quote:My oximeter reports which, by my understanding DO show events in the reports I generate.

Unfortunately, they do not show apnea or hypopnea events. They may show drops in blood oxygen, of course, because that's what pulse oximeters do. If you're having an apnea or hypopnea event that does not have a significant corresponding drop in blood O2 levels - your oximeter will not record that.

Quote:Its not a gold standard when its not tolerated, and its well known that compliance statistics for CPAP are pretty dismal.

"Compliance" and "toleration" issues with CPAP happen most often because people don't stick with the treatment for various reasons: improper pressure, improper humidity levels, no comfort settings like a ramp feature or C-flex/A-Flex/EPR technology, wrong type of mask or wrong size of mask or improperly attached mask (too tight usually), or the psychological issues associated with having to sleep with a CPAP mask attached to you for the rest of your life etc. Unfortunately, even the medical professionals give up too easily and mark a patient's file with the dreaded "CPAP not tolerated" statement. It takes complete commitment and a lot of time, encouragement and support to make it work. When a person makes that total commitment, they usually find out that CPAP was the best solution for them and worth the extra effort to stick with it long term.

Far too many people quit on CPAP too early. That is the fact that is truly dismal. And it's the reason Apnea Board is here - to help folks stay with CPAP and help them solve the issues that occur when one starts on CPAP therapy. We have evidence contained within the posts of this forum that time and time again, patients were on the verge of giving up on CPAP, when all they needed was some advice and help and encouragement from other patients here to get over a seemingly unsolvable problem with their CPAP machine or mask. We do this because CPAP is indeed the gold standard for OSA treatment. Oral devices are not. We go with what is proven and what works. We don't recommend that folks give up on CPAP and settle for a solution that simply cannot compare to CPAP in effectiveness. I wish the medical community would provide such support for patients who run into problems with CPAP, but unfortunately it's lacking in most areas.


Quote:I have read studies showing oral devices to be beneficial.

Are oral devices better than nothing at all? - Yes, of course. But the evidence shows that they cannot compare in lowing apnea events when placed side by side to CPAP therapy. Beneficial? Of course - since they're better than no treatment at all. I personally feel as though oral devices are a very poor solution when compared to CPAP. The unbiased evidence is just not there with any degree of authoritative and conclusive studies on oral devices.

Quote: Please understand, I am aware of it being the "gold standard" so, being stubborn by nature, I gave it a good try.

CPAP is not something you "try". It is something that you commit to for life. You must make it work for you. Until you get to that level of commitment, you'll give up on CPAP every time. Yeah, I know you'll say that you did fully commit to it. That's what everyone who gives up on CPAP seems to say.

Am I saying your oral device or your positional therapy is useless? No, of course not. But neither can compare to the effectiveness of CPAP.

Of course, just my opinion. Take it or leave it.

Coffee

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08-02-2013 11:30 PM
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Don in Austin Offline

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Post: #12
RE: Defeating bumper belt -- more or less over time?
Just a few comments.....

I understand the sleep dentist could have bias. I don't think that is the case with the sleep doctor who originally put me on CPAP or the ENT sleep specialist.

Two different general sleep doctors -- both of whom prescribe CPAP machines on a regular basis -- have agreed my apneas are highly position dependent. Why would I not take advantage of this finding?

Does positional therapy match CPAP in effectiveness? Perhaps not, even though, in my case, a sleep study showed my apneas to be highly position dependent.

Does my oral device match CPAP in effectiveness? Perhaps not.

But....can positional therapy combined with the oral device match CPAP? I believe it does in my case. And compliance with both of these is a non-issue.

My understanding of the adrenaline rush with apneas is that is what was causing me to repeatedly find myself wide awake in the middle of the night and not able to go back to sleep for some time -- obviously not good! This was a big problem before treatment of any kind, a problem while wearing a CPAP mask, and a rare occurrence now. When it does happen these days, I typically find I have defeated the back bumper belt, which is why I have ordered a different model and if that does not meet my standards have yet another model to try. Kind of like all the different CPAP masks I tried but, IMHO, more promising.

The oximeter can not measure adrenaline levels, but surely adrenaline surges are accompanied by a pulse rate surge which the oximeter CAN measure.

I have to respectfully disagree with my having to make CPAP work no matter what. I AM sleeping better and looking forward to sleeping still better if I can achieve more consistency in staying off my back. I will search other forums for assistance to that goal.
08-03-2013 07:56 AM
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Post: #13
RE: Defeating bumper belt -- more or less over time?
(08-03-2013 07:56 AM)Don in Austin Wrote:  But....can positional therapy combined with the oral device match CPAP? I believe it does in my case. And compliance with both of these is a non-issue.

And that is my point - you believe that it does. But you have no direct proof that these two therapies combined are equal to CPAP in effectiveness. You'd have to be hooked up to a device that can directly measure AHI for that to happen. All you have is some indirect evidence using two factors - (reduced O2 desats and decreased pulse rates). Better than no treatment, yes. But proof that it's equal to CPAP? Not really - not in any truly scientific way.

This is my problem with oral devices primarily- much of the hype is based on a lot of subjective patient experiences, not cold, hard independent unbiased clinical studies that have been conducted with a large sampling of patients.

Again, I respect your commitment to at least find some treatment for your OSA. I just think you'd be better served if you could get CPAP to work for you. You seem to have an anti-CPAP mindset, that is clear. You have a right to your opinion of course-- it's your health after all.

However, I must point out what I see as inconsistencies in your argument for the effectiveness of these non-CPAP treatments... especially for new OSA patients who may be reading this thread, and mistakenly conclude that oral devices plus positional therapy are "just as good" as CPAP. Your case is not that unique - the vast majority of OSA patients have "positional sleep apnea" (where AHI is increased when in the supine position). Having positional apneas should not be used as an excuse or reason to use a less-effective treatment. A lot of OSA patients have trouble acclimating to CPAP - that should not be used as an excuse to give up on it.

I still believe way too many people give up too early on CPAP. When it comes to one's health, I believe you CAN do what you NEED to do.

When I see truly disabled patients (like paraplegics, quadriplegics, totally blind or completely deaf folks) who are able to overcome a plethora of physical complications in this world, I have nothing but admiration for their stubborn determination to overcome in the face of staggering odds. Then I see an otherwise healthy adult who says "I can't do it"... I have to ask, "What? You can't put a little mask over your face for 6-8 hours a night with a little air pressure coming out of it? Really?" Unless there is some obvious physical issue with regard to why you can't use CPAP, you can use it. But in many cases it's simply a choice made by the patient to give up on it when they meet with discomfort or a couple of obstacles -- and therefore CPAP will never work for them because of their choice.

Making CPAP work starts with the proper mindset - that is the first thing that must happen - the patient must want it to work and determine that it will work for them.

Again, I realize that I'm not going to convince you. Rather, I'm most likely writing to new OSA patients and trying to encourage them to not stop their CPAP treatment but to seek out ways to make it work for them.

Good luck to you, Don!

Coffee

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08-03-2013 09:11 AM
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Post: #14
RE: Defeating bumper belt -- more or less over time?
(08-02-2013 04:09 PM)RonWessels Wrote:  
(08-02-2013 03:20 PM)Don in Austin Wrote:  
(08-01-2013 02:54 PM)RonWessels Wrote:  If I could just side-track for a moment, ...

It looks like this forum is pretty much focused on CPAP use as opposed to apnea solutions in general.

My questions were not because we are CPAP-centered. My questions were curiosity as to why your CPAP treatment failed. For obvious reasons, there aren't many people on this forum for whom CPAP failed.
Don, I have to Agree with Ron and SuperSleeper. You are the first person I've heard of who can actually tolerate the dental device for jaw advancement without inducing TMJ-like symptoms or even full-jaw cramps. Plus, as Ron points out, it seems there is not enough evidence in peer-reviewed science journals to alleviate normal scientific skepticism for the device.

It's entirely possible that you are the one in a thousand case for whom the dental jaw-advancement device works. And that's great.

These seem to be popular reasons people cannot tolerate CPAP therapy:
1. Claustrophobia - it freaks some of us out to wear the mask.
2. Mouth breather willing to wear the nasal mask, but not the full face mask because of the modern television meme that a masked individual in bed equals an individual on his death-bed.
3. Because taping and chin-straps may not work, some of us simply refuse to take the next step and try the full face mask. We decide we've made the effort and now the universe has to meet us half-way. But it doesn't, so we're justified in deciding it doesn't work for us.
4. Don't want our grandchildren scared when grandpa wakes up with a hose connected to his face.
5. Don't want the embarrassment of having to admit a personal health frailty on a physical level that anyone can see.
6. Willing to explore other options like dental advancement because it seems more like a sports device than hospital-bed device. It's less a weakness thing, and more a support thing.
7. Just too darned sure it's not going to work for us. Science is bad. Faith in a higher being is the only thing that matters. I'm prepared to meet my maker, even if it's tomorrow. What will be will be.
8. Lack of commitment due to depression, anxiety or a combination.
9. It's an attack on our virility. (It's not manly/womanly/sexually attractive.)

Your original post seems to suggest that you were expecting opposition to dental devices in subsequent replies.

You don't have to tell us why it doesn't work for you. But it helps to be clear in your head why you don't think it works for you. There's no use pulling the wool over your own eyes. Ron asked why it doesn't work for you, but you avoided responding, rather wishing to talk more about your success. But without numbers, it's hard to say what qualifies as success.

It sounds like you were willing to try the nasal mask, so it seems less like claustrophobia. You're even willing to go the length of trying a dental device and talk about your limited success, since it only works when you're not on your back, so it's not likely depression. You're willing to wear a back chock, so it's not about sleeping with devices strapped to you. What's true for you? Why did you decide you didn't want to try the full face mask?

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08-03-2013 10:45 AM
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Don in Austin Offline

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Post: #15
RE: Defeating bumper belt -- more or less over time? (CPAP Alternatives)
I would like to respond to comments by SuperSleeper and DreamDiver in one post. No particular order to responses.

DreamDiver said "For obvious reasons, there aren't many people on this forum for whom CPAP failed." Maybe not, but there are an awful lot of CPAP machines out there that haven't been activated for a long time!

DreamDriver said: "You are the first person I've heard of who can actually tolerate the dental device for jaw advancement without inducing TMJ-like symptoms or even full-jaw cramps."
I have had no problems like this. Obviously if I did, I would have to reconsider use of my oral device. Not everyone is the same. I would be surprised if jaw problems are universal. My sleep dentist has used a device himself for several years and claims no jaw problems and claims to have many patients out there successfully using a device.

SuperSleeper said: "You seem to have an anti-CPAP mindset, that is clear." Nothing could be further from the truth! For years my wife's snoring would wake me up regularly. Then I started to notice her gasping violently and it literally sounded like she was dying. A sleep study diagnosed her with severe apnea and she got a CPAP machine. She could not tolerate any of the hard plastic masks and bought a fabric mask online. She was comfortable with that mask from the first night. It has been over a year and I have not heard her snore or gasp even once. Her use of CPAP has been a godsend to us both. But she is not me and I am not she.

Dream Diver asked: "Why did you decide you didn't want to try the full face mask?" I am not sure where this came from. There is a full face mask in a drawer next to my bed. Any time I would move in my sleep it would get shifted and leak. This, even with the straps so tight as to be painful.

DreamDiver suggested nine possible reasons I didn't stick with CPAP i don't think any of those apply. My reason is quite simple: the entire time I used the CPAP machine, only ONCE did I sleep continuously throughout the night. now I do so on a regular basis. Also decreased daytime sleepiness.

DreamDiver said: "Ron asked why it doesn't work for you, but you avoided responding, rather wishing to talk more about your success." I did not elaborate because I naively hoped to have my statement that CPAP does not work for me accepted at face value and receive assistance with enhancing a program that I feel is more promising for me.

SuperSleeper said: When I see truly disabled patients (like paraplegics, quadriplegics, totally blind or completely deaf folks) who are able to overcome a plethora of physical complications in this world, I have nothing but admiration for their stubborn determination to overcome in the face of staggering odds. Then I see an otherwise healthy adult who says "I can't do it"... I have to ask, "What? You can't put a little mask over your face for 6-8 hours a night with a little air pressure coming out of it? Really?" I don't think this is a good analogy. If I became paraplegic I would have no choice but to accept the suffering it caused. But I do have a choice not to suffer with CPAP. Criticizing those for whom CPAP is so daunting that they give up on it is akin to telling an overweight person, "What's the matter? Why don't you just eat less?" Such approaches are rarely constructive. I quite smoking 5 packs of cigarettes/day cold turkey in 1974, approximately 25 years ago I became sober after decades of severe alcoholism and did so without AA or any other support group. I am stubborn by nature and I don't think my rejection of CPAP reflects a moral spinelessness.

SuperSleeper said: Your case is not that unique - the vast majority of OSA patients have "positional sleep apnea" (where AHI is increased when in the supine position). Having positional apneas should not be used as an excuse or reason to use a less-effective treatment. Indeed, position is a big factor, so why not take advantage of that for minimal expense and no compliance issues? I not saying positional therapy is ideal by itself any more than the oral device is necessarily adequate by itself. That is why I use both.

DreamDiver said: "You're even willing to go the length of trying a dental device and talk about your limited success, since it only works when you're not on your back," I think there is a misunderstanding here. The dental device does, indeed, work even when I am on my back, but I want my OSA suppressed more than the dental device can do by itself.

SuperSleeper and DreamDiver are both concerned about a lack of incontrovertible scientific evidence for regimens other than CPAP Dental devices are approved by the FDA for apnea suppression, the Zzoma bumper belt is FDA approved. I have read quite a few studies confirming the effectiveness of dental devices for mild to moderate apnea -- severe less so. My apnea is somewhere around high moderate, low moderate if I can just stay off my back as confirmed by the science (??) of a sleep study. Another sleep study is not in the cards for me at this time so I have to work with what I have got: Overall higher O2 levels, fewer and shallower desaturations, fewer surges of pulse rate and fewer awakenings. Should I just dismiss this experience as inadequately "scientifically proven?"

SuperSleeper said: Good luck to you, Don! Thank you!

Still looking for assistance to stay off my back more of the time. i have other devices to try for minimal cost and, if experience so far is any indication, no real compliance or comfort issues. I am still seeking an answer to my original question regards what happens long term with a bumper belt:

A: You train yourself not to sleep on your back

B: You learn to defeat it.

Given that my AHI is, according to a sleep study and corroborated by other experience,, approximately DOUBLE on my back, I think this is an important question even if nobody else on this forum agrees. May have to find an "I hate CPAP" forum for insight on this. Smile
08-03-2013 03:47 PM
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Post: #16
RE: Defeating bumper belt -- more or less over time? (CPAP Alternatives)
I think there's clinical evidence that oral appliances can be used to successfully treat OSA for some individuals. It's just that CPAP therapy can also work for not only those individuals, but also for the far greater number of individuals for whom the dental appliance won't. So CPAP therapy is recommended far more often.

There is an additional benefit to CPAP therapy in that it can monitor its own effectiveness, something the dental appliance can't do.

For those unwilling to adapt to CPAP therapy the dental appliance seems an attractive alternative. For me, personally, I'm not gonna risk it. There's far too much at stake. My CPAP machine produces data that tells me it's working. I've invested far too much time and effort adapting to it to give up now.

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08-03-2013 04:22 PM
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Post: #17
RE: Defeating bumper belt -- more or less over time? (CPAP Alternatives)
Hi Don in Austin,

I use CPAP but I still have positional apneas.
So...
Case Logic makes a nice back pack built to carry a small laptop computer in.
(Amazon - $30)
You stuff three tubes of tennis balls in the smaller pocket in back.
(leave them in the tubes to produce a more rigid unit)

Once you snug up the straps good, you aren't getting out of that unless you wake up fully and shuck it off.
However...you are not going to be sleeping on your back *at all* with that thing on.
It is a bit annoying in Summer because my back gets a bit warm but it's cheap and it works!
Most of my AHI numbers are in the 0.0 to 1.5 range with that. Without it they are closer to 5. (not so good)

Cheers and good luck!

"With ordinary talent and extraordinary perseverance, all things are attainable." - Thomas Foxwell Buxton

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08-03-2013 04:23 PM
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Don in Austin Offline

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Post: #18
RE: Defeating bumper belt -- more or less over time? (CPAP Alternatives)
(08-03-2013 04:22 PM)Sleepster Wrote:  I think there's clinical evidence that oral appliances can be used to successfully treat OSA for some individuals. It's just that CPAP therapy can also work for not only those individuals, but also for the far greater number of individuals for whom the dental appliance won't. So CPAP therapy is recommended far more often.

There is an additional benefit to CPAP therapy in that it can monitor its own effectiveness, something the dental appliance can't do.

For those unwilling to adapt to CPAP therapy the dental appliance seems an attractive alternative. For me, personally, I'm not gonna risk it. There's far too much at stake. My CPAP machine produces data that tells me it's working. I've invested far too much time and effort adapting to it to give up now.
I would never give up CPAP either if I had adapted to it.
Absolutely a plus the data the CPAP machine can log.
(08-03-2013 04:23 PM)Shastzi Wrote:  Hi Don in Austin,

I use CPAP but I still have positional apneas.
So...
Case Logic makes a nice back pack built to carry a small laptop computer in.
(Amazon - $30)
You stuff three tubes of tennis balls in the smaller pocket in back.
(leave them in the tubes to produce a more rigid unit)

Once you snug up the straps good, you aren't getting out of that unless you wake up fully and shuck it off.
However...you are not going to be sleeping on your back *at all* with that thing on.
It is a bit annoying in Summer because my back gets a bit warm but it's cheap and it works!
Most of my AHI numbers are in the 0.0 to 1.5 range with that. Without it they are closer to 5. (not so good)

Cheers and good luck!

Have you tried going without the backpack? My sleep dentist told me over time you train yourself not to sleep on you back and don't need to wear a belt or backpack, etc. all the time but I wonder....
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2013 04:42 PM by Don in Austin.)
08-03-2013 04:40 PM
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Post: #19
RE: Defeating bumper belt -- more or less over time? (CPAP Alternatives)
My responses below in green.
(08-03-2013 03:47 PM)Don in Austin Wrote:  ...
DreamDiver said "For obvious reasons, there aren't many people on this forum for whom CPAP failed." Maybe not, but there are an awful lot of CPAP machines out there that haven't been activated for a long time!
RonWessels said this.

DreamDiver said: "Ron asked why it doesn't work for you, but you avoided responding, rather wishing to talk more about your success." I did not elaborate because I naively hoped to have my statement that CPAP does not work for me accepted at face value and receive assistance with enhancing a program that I feel is more promising for me.

If your oximetry looks good and you are comfortable, then as I said, you're one of the few people for whom the dental device works. That's good.

...
May have to find an "I hate CPAP" forum for insight on this. Smile

Actually, it would help more for someone like you to stick around. You've obviously got something worth talking about that is working for you, and while skepticism can be healthy, numbers don't lie. If your oximetry looks good throughout the night when you're off your back using the dental device, then it pays to find a way to stay off your back, especially if you can't stand CPAP. Frankly, my oximetry is about as good as yours even with CPAP and an AHI averaging about 0.7 monthly.

I know of one gentleman who uses a back chock to keep off his back with CPAP because he can lower his pressure to 9 from 17 if he never sleeps on his back. He wears a small back pack with shoulder straps that snap together at the chest and waist with a 9-inch diameter kid's bouncy ball secured in the center of his back pack. Another guy uses tennis balls sewn into the back of his shirt. I've also heard of people using various products by Rematee (easily found at various popular non-medical online distributors). They make one snore belt that's got shoulder straps that may perhaps help to reduce belt torque during sleep.

It might be interesting if you did a sleep study with your preferred back chock solution while using the dental device, but since you're satisfied, I'm guessing that's not likely to happen soon. I wonder though if you did get a study, whether it would satisfy some health-insurance protocol, allowing you to reduce your overall health insurance cost since you would be technically no longer needing cpap.

This is "apneaboard.com" not "cpapboard.com". That would include you. I suspect you're in good company here.

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08-03-2013 05:20 PM
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Post: #20
RE: Defeating bumper belt -- more or less over time? (CPAP Alternatives)
Don, I just want to address some of the comments you made, if you don't mind.

(08-03-2013 03:47 PM)Don in Austin Wrote:  DreamDiver said "For obvious reasons, there aren't many people on this forum for whom CPAP failed." Maybe not, but there are an awful lot of CPAP machines out there that haven't been activated for a long time!

As DreamDiver mentioned, I was the one that actually said that originally. And I don't think anyone will dispute that there are many people for whom CPAP has failed. My point was that not many of them then attend a Sleep Apnea forum that primarily discusses CPAP, which is why I took the opportunity to query you about your CPAP attempt.

(08-03-2013 03:47 PM)Don in Austin Wrote:  DreamDiver said: "Ron asked why it doesn't work for you, but you avoided responding, rather wishing to talk more about your success." I did not elaborate because I naively hoped to have my statement that CPAP does not work for me accepted at face value and receive assistance with enhancing a program that I feel is more promising for me.

The very reason that I explicitly labelled my question a "side track" was because I did not want the main discussion in this thread to deviate from helping you deal with not sleeping on your back. As I mentioned previously, I only asked because I was curious, not because I wanted to somehow challenge you.

(08-03-2013 03:47 PM)Don in Austin Wrote:  SuperSleeper said: Your case is not that unique - the vast majority of OSA patients have "positional sleep apnea" (where AHI is increased when in the supine position). Having positional apneas should not be used as an excuse or reason to use a less-effective treatment. Indeed, position is a big factor, so why not take advantage of that for minimal expense and no compliance issues? I not saying positional therapy is ideal by itself any more than the oral device is necessarily adequate by itself. That is why I use both.

And here, with apologies to SuperSleeper, I must agree with Don. If, by sleeping exclusively on your side, your OSA's remain at a normal level, it is certainly a viable treatment option to make sure you do not ever sleep on your back.

(08-03-2013 03:47 PM)Don in Austin Wrote:  SuperSleeper and DreamDiver are both concerned about a lack of incontrovertible scientific evidence for regimens other than CPAP Dental devices are approved by the FDA for apnea suppression, the Zzoma bumper belt is FDA approved. I have read quite a few studies confirming the effectiveness of dental devices for mild to moderate apnea -- severe less so. My apnea is somewhere around high moderate, low moderate if I can just stay off my back as confirmed by the science (??) of a sleep study. Another sleep study is not in the cards for me at this time so I have to work with what I have got: Overall higher O2 levels, fewer and shallower desaturations, fewer surges of pulse rate and fewer awakenings. Should I just dismiss this experience as inadequately "scientifically proven?"

And here is where what I believe started as a misunderstanding has escalated. To put words into SuperSleeper's and DreamDiver's mouth, I don't believe they are disputing that dental devices _can_ successfully treat some cases of OSA (typically when the OSA is "mild" to "moderate"). I believe what they are pointing out is that, with CPAP devices (at least the data producing versions), there is objective evidence that the OSA is being successfully treated. With dental devices and without a sleep study while wearing the dental devices, there is only subjective evidence that the OSA is being successfully treated.

(08-03-2013 03:47 PM)Don in Austin Wrote:  SuperSleeper said: Good luck to you, Don! Thank you!

I believe I can safely say that everyone here wishes you good luck.


Now, back to your original question. Sadly, I have no experience with the bumper belt, so I can't directly answer your question.

You have stated that improvised devices haven't worked well, but haven't really provided much information as to why they do not work. And that is going to be rather critical as to whether a bumper belt will work.

If you become awake during the evening (perhaps only partially) and simply decide that you no longer want to sleep with the device and take it off, there's probably not much that is going to help you. At some level, you simply don't care about keeping your apneas in check. Yes, that last is harsh, but from personal experience, I know how easy it is to lie to oneself about things that are uncomfortable. You will have to make the decision that you absolutely will not sleep on your back and own that decision.

If, however, it is simply the case that everything you have tried thus far has shifted in your sleep so that it stopped being effective, I will point out that people are much more ingenious awake than they are asleep. Again, having no firsthand knowledge of the bumper belt, I have no idea how resistant it is to incidental shifting. It sounds like you need something that remains firmly in the middle of your back.

One suggestion I could make would be to take some duct tape and somehow fix the orientation of the obstruction (tennis balls or whatever) to your back on your bare skin. I can't imagine you not at least waking up with duct tape ripping off your skin! Smile
08-03-2013 05:58 PM
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