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Undiagnosed, Sure I Have It, Self Employed, Need to Keep Costs in Check
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jgjones1972 Offline

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Location: Ohio - USA

Post: #21
RE: Undiagnosed, Sure I Have It, Self Employed, Need to Keep Costs in Check
I'll spare everyone the tedium of repeating the phrase about how an S9 AutoSet can harm the user.

I have a hard time seeing how PAP could do serious harm to an otherwise healthy person.

Aspirin doesn't require strict medical supervision; yet it can cause big problems for some people - and, using some of the logic used to warn against unsupervised PAP use, even low-dose aspirin can kill you if you think that taking it is curing your cancer.

I'm not AT ALL trying to recommend going without medical advice from a good doctor, but I really don't think that using a PAP machine is anywhere near as dangerous as it is made out to be by many.
04-23-2013 09:24 PM
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racprops Offline

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Post: #22
RE: Undiagnosed, Sure I Have It, Self Employed, Need to Keep Costs in Check
I would say the main risk is setting any max pressure higher than 20. (I perfir 15 as a max.)

Over that I have been told could punch a hole in a lung.

Rich
04-23-2013 10:29 PM
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archangle Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Undiagnosed, Sure I Have It, Self Employed, Need to Keep Costs in Check
(04-23-2013 10:29 PM)racprops Wrote:  I would say the main risk is setting any max pressure higher than 20. (I perfir 15 as a max.)

Over that I have been told could punch a hole in a lung.

Rich

20 cm is about 8 inches. Take a glass of water filled with 8 inches of water. Stick a straw all the way to the bottom of the glass. Gently blow air until bubbles come out the bottom. That's 20 cmH2O pressure.

It's not likely to do you any harm short term. You're going to have a LOT more pressure in your lungs every time you cough, sneeze, blow your nose, or even blow up a balloon.

For that matter, 30 cm is about 12 inches. Try the same experiment if you can find a 12 inch straw.

Looked at another way, 20 cmH2O is about 0.3 psi or 2% of atmospheric pressure.

I think the limiting factor on pressure is mostly that it becomes too difficult to exhale. Plus gas, popping ears, leaks, etc.

Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2013 11:14 PM by archangle.)
04-23-2013 11:13 PM
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DocWils Offline

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Post: #24
RE: Undiagnosed, Sure I Have It, Self Employed, Need to Keep Costs in Check
I haven't heard of a CPAP popping a hole in a lung, and so far as I know, there is not enough pressure to do so. Actually, even at the highest settings the CPAP is relatively mild compared to what the lung can take in. Your lungs don't inflate all that much from CPAP, the pressure build up is in the throat. You have an automatically regulating pressure system in your lungs - if the pressure builds too high too rapidly, the chest muscles contract and expel the air, and PAP devices aren't known for damaging the lungs from pressure, although CPAP can cause a sort of asthma in some patients - it isn't a serious condition and has more to do with the irritation of the bronchs than anything else, and is not pressure related. Usually changing the settings on the humidifier takes that problem away (but not always).

Come to think of it, the first CPAP was a vacuum cleaner with the hose reversed - that must have been a ton more pressure than modern CPAPs deliver....
04-24-2013 05:17 AM
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zonk Offline

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Post: #25
RE: Undiagnosed, Sure I Have It, Self Employed, Need to Keep Costs in Check
(04-24-2013 05:17 AM)DocWils Wrote:  I haven't heard of a CPAP popping a hole in a lung, and so far as I know, there is not enough pressure to do so.
According to uni of Maryland, CPAP can have some rare serious side effects:
* Patients may also feel temporary chest muscle discomfort, which is caused by an increase in lung volume.
* Severe side effects are very rare but may include heart rhythm disorders (arrhythmias), severe nose bleeding, and air pockets in the skull.

Source: http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/co...0065_8.htm
04-24-2013 06:25 AM
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Shastzi Offline

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Post: #26
RE: Undiagnosed, Sure I Have It, Self Employed, Need to Keep Costs in Check
Yes, I have tried to inflate a balloon with my CPAP just for curiosity sake.
It was truly pathetic.
Indeed the lungs are delicate though some trained individuals can blow up a hot water bottle until it explodes.
In order to do this requires 4 atmospheres! ( 14.7psi * 4 = 58.8psi. Pounds per square inch and not cm of water! )

Don't try THAT at home kids, that is for experts.

Smile

"With ordinary talent and extraordinary perseverance, all things are attainable." - Thomas Foxwell Buxton

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04-24-2013 08:32 AM
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archangle Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Undiagnosed, Sure I Have It, Self Employed, Need to Keep Costs in Check
(04-24-2013 05:17 AM)DocWils Wrote:  Come to think of it, the first CPAP was a vacuum cleaner with the hose reversed - that must have been a ton more pressure than modern CPAPs deliver....

Geez, people think their CPAP machines are noisy, can you imagine a vacuum cleaner running all the time?

I think I read somewhere that it was a modified vacuum cleaner, probably with reduced voltage. I suspect most vacuums wouldn't run that many hours continuously without burning out.

I suspect they had some sort of pressure regulator, too. I think there's some sort of roll your own pressure regulator with a tube going down into a bucket of water that gets used in third world medical situations, especially for infants.

Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
04-25-2013 01:53 AM
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DocWils Offline

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Post: #28
RE: Undiagnosed, Sure I Have It, Self Employed, Need to Keep Costs in Check
The tube going down into a bucket of water is used to inflate collapsed lungs, both in the third world and in the first - I have used it, and all doctors I know of are trained in it for emergency use when "modern" machines aren't available. My biggest worry about the newest generations of doctors in the West is that they aren't getting trained in the "old ways" intensely enough. Skills like that are getting lost in our reliance on computers and fancy machines and shiny devices, and lives are risk of getting lost as well.
04-25-2013 04:16 AM
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vsheline Offline

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Post: #29
RE: Undiagnosed, Sure I Have It, Self Employed, Need to Keep Costs in Check
(04-24-2013 08:32 AM)Shastzi Wrote:  Indeed the lungs are delicate though some trained individuals can blow up a hot water bottle until it explodes.
In order to do this requires 4 atmospheres! ( 14.7psi * 4 = 58.8psi. Pounds per square inch and not cm of water! )

Don't try THAT at home kids, that is for experts.

1 psi equals about 70 cmH2O.

58.8 psi = 4134 cmH2O

Here a a link to an online calculator which converts from psi to cmH2O or from cmH2O to psi:
http://www.convertunits.com/from/cmH2O/to/psi


Here a a link to an online calculator which converts from kPa to cmH2O or from cmH2O to kPa:
http://www.convertunits.com/from/cmH2O/to/kPa

Membership in the Advisory Member group should not be understood as in any way implying medical expertise or qualification for advising Sleep Apnea patients concerning their treatment. The Advisory Member group provides advice and suggestions to Apnea Board administrators and staff on matters concerning Apnea Board operation and administrative policies - not on matters concerning treatment for Sleep Apnea. I think it is now too late to change the name of the group but I think Voting Member group would perhaps have been a more descriptive name for the group.
04-25-2013 04:37 AM
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u2canbuild Offline

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Post: #30
RE: Undiagnosed, Sure I Have It, Self Employed, Need to Keep Costs in Check
Interesting dialogue,

So using my CPAP as SCUBA gear.............. Thinking-about this means that I can only go about 20 inches deep in the pool?
04-25-2013 07:34 AM
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