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Weird dreams and thoughts
#1
Hello,

So, I have a quick update about how last night went and also a few questions.

I took 5mg of Ambien last night, but it didn't really help me fall asleep quicker. But, I was able to fall back asleep when I woke up this morning which I haven't been able to do because of weird thoughts and dreams ( will explain later in post). I normally don't have an issue with falling asleep, more so with staying asleep. I've noticed lately that I always wake up around the same time each morning. Do you think if I started going to bed earlier I might get more sleep that way?

Secondly, I keep having the issue of congestion in my nose and end up taking the mask off after about 4 hours. Yesterday I managed to wear it for almost 6, so I am making some progress. I have been using the Neilmed sinus rinse and today began using Flonase to help with my allergies. I've tried playing with the humidity, no help there. Any other suggestions?

Last but not least, I have been having these really strange confusing dreams or dream like state in between my frequent wakings. These dreams make no sense what so ever and are very weird. They make me feel very confused, disoriented, panicky, and once that happens I'm awake and fearful of going back to sleep. I get scared that if I don't snap myself out of this state my mind will stay like that. I mentioned this before on another forum and really got no response. I'm curious as to what these are? Are they hallucinations from the oxygen deprivation? Has anyone else had these?
Thanks
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#2
(07-12-2015, 09:03 PM)mzdawn74 Wrote: Yesterday I managed to wear it for almost 6, so I am making some progress.
Took me over a year to mange 6 hours, you're doing much better than what you think ... congrats

Before CPAP, at times, used to have terrible dreams
Never had them, since started using S9 AutoSet over 4 years ago, and now A10 AutoSet
Don't miss them, good riddance

As for congestion, I also use saline sinus rinse and the heated hose (ClimateLineAir)
At times on "Auto", if the air feel warm, change to "Manual" Temp 23 C and humidity 3
Humidity is a personal thing, matter of trial and error

I've tried full face mask with no success, now sticking with my nasal mask and "Ruby" chinstrap







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#3
(07-12-2015, 09:52 PM)zonk Wrote:
(07-12-2015, 09:03 PM)mzdawn74 Wrote: Yesterday I managed to wear it for almost 6, so I am making some progress.
Took me over a year to mange 6 hours, you're doing much better than what you think ... congrats

Before CPAP, at times, used to have terrible dreams
Never had them, since started using S9 AutoSet over 4 years ago, and now A10 AutoSet
Don't miss them, good riddance

As for congestion, I also use saline sinus rinse and the heated hose (ClimateLineAir)
At times on "Auto", if the air feel warm, change to "Manual" Temp 23 C and humidity 3
Humidity is a personal thing, matter of trial and error

I've tried full face mask with no success, now sticking with my nasal mask and "Ruby" chinstrap

Thanks Zonk! Did the dreams stop right away after beginning treatment? I can't do a full face mask, it's too claustrophobic.
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#4
I have read that there is usually a REM rebound (when REM has been lacking) and there is a SWS (slow wave sleep) rebound when Stage 3 NREM sleep is lacking. This means much more REM or SWS will occur. Apparently the brain orders up extra SWS (SWS rebound) in greater quantities than extra REM (REM rebound) to make up for past deficits.

You may be experiencing more REM, and therefore more times a night when you wake up having just dreamed, and increases the chance that emotional reaction will occur once awakening.

The good news about this is you are probably getting this bad feeling because you are getting better sleep. Wait, what? Well, yeah.

When I started CPAP treatment I started dreaming - and a lot. For the first couple weeks, I dreamed at least 6 times a night. And, I was waking up (but then just drifting off again) after each one. I dream about 2 to 3 times a night now. I was lucky that terrifying and confusing vivid dreams were rare for me.

Also, look up "REM sleep behavior disorder NIH" and you may find
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25325487 an interesting springboard for further reading, an abstract states "REM sleep behavior disorder (RBD) is associated with antidepressant treatment."

Some of your past experiences with good or bad treatment results are making your path more twisted and complicated.

I think you found a major key in the CPAP for increased sleep effectiveness.

QAL

Other notes that may help -
Higher doses of Ambien tend to suppress REM sleep.
[added] The Sinus rinse and the Flonase sound like they will be a great help.
Waking is a natural result of exiting REM sleep. It is the single most common mode of waking (when not unnaturally being awakened by alarm or disruption.)
Dedicated to QALity sleep.
You'll note I am listed as an Advisory Member. I am honored to be listed as such. See the fine print - Advisory Members as a group provide advice and suggestions to Apnea Board administrators and staff concerning Apnea Board operation and administrative policies. Membership in the Advisory Member group should not be understood as in any way implying medical expertise or qualification for advising Sleep Apnea patients concerning their treatment.
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#5
Is this the first night on Ambien or do you use it regularly? Is it immediate release tablet which will help get you to sleep or the extended release form which helps to get you to sleep then extends to help keep you asleep?

You stated you have an issue with staying asleep so the extended release form, Ambien CR, would be the better choice. Of course side effects,especially for extended release, will more than likely make you feel drugged and sleepy the next day!

I know when I started with HS sedation many years ago, I had lightening like flashes in my brain, and snapshots of people playing like an old 8 mm film. I would wake up terrified and sure I couldn't live like that. But once you build up a tolerance in your blood it seemed to ease off. I still have some wild dreams and nightmares. I can't get to sleep, so I take meds for that. It's a restless sleep but anything is better than nothing.

Make sure your Ambien use is monitored. Good luck!
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#6
(07-12-2015, 11:31 PM)quiescence at last Wrote: I have read that there is usually a REM rebound (when REM has been lacking) and there is a SWS (slow wave sleep) rebound when Stage 3 NREM sleep is lacking. This means much more REM or SWS will occur. Apparently the brain orders up extra SWS (SWS rebound) in greater quantities than extra REM (REM rebound) to make up for past deficits.

You may be experiencing more REM, and therefore more times a night when you wake up having just dreamed, and increases the chance that emotional reaction will occur once awakening.

The good news about this is you are probably getting this bad feeling because you are getting better sleep. Wait, what? Well, yeah.

When I started CPAP treatment I started dreaming - and a lot. For the first couple weeks, I dreamed at least 6 times a night. And, I was waking up (but then just drifting off again) after each one. I dream about 2 to 3 times a night now. I was lucky that terrifying and confusing vivid dreams were rare for me.

Also, look up "REM sleep behavior disorder NIH" and you may find
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25325487 an interesting springboard for further reading, an abstract states "REM sleep behavior disorder (RBD) is associated with antidepressant treatment."

Some of your past experiences with good or bad treatment results are making your path more twisted and complicated.

I think you found a major key in the CPAP for increased sleep effectiveness.

QAL

Other notes that may help -
Higher doses of Ambien tend to suppress REM sleep.
[added] The Sinus rinse and the Flonase sound like they will be a great help.
Waking is a natural result of exiting REM sleep. It is the single most common mode of waking (when not unnaturally being awakened by alarm or disruption.)

These dreams were happening before starting cpap, that's why I asked of the oxygen desats might be causing these dreams.

Thank you for the study information on REM, I will check that out.

I don't like the groggy feeling I got from the ambien, so I will be speaking to my doctor about other options.
(07-13-2015, 12:21 AM)Kakkles Wrote: Is this the first night on Ambien or do you use it regularly? Is it immediate release tablet which will help get you to sleep or the extended release form which helps to get you to sleep then extends to help keep you asleep?

You stated you have an issue with staying asleep so the extended release form, Ambien CR, would be the better choice. Of course side effects,especially for extended release, will more than likely make you feel drugged and sleepy the next day!

I know when I started with HS sedation many years ago, I had lightening like flashes in my brain, and snapshots of people playing like an old 8 mm film. I would wake up terrified and sure I couldn't live like that. But once you build up a tolerance in your blood it seemed to ease off. I still have some wild dreams and nightmares. I can't get to sleep, so I take meds for that. It's a restless sleep but anything is better than nothing.

Make sure your Ambien use is monitored. Good luck!

Thank you for the information.

Last night was my first night. I believe it's the regular ambien, as it doesn't say CR. I do not like the groggy feeling I have today, so I will be no longer taking it.

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#7
Ambien is something that treats symptoms. If you have a circadian cycle that is out of whack, this can lead to trouble getting to sleep. Ambien treats that by essentially knocking you out. It does not hit you with a frying pan; it puts your higher brain into a state where it is easier to lose consciousness. The risk is that it does nothing to put your lower brain, or "reptile" brain to sleep. That is typically a signal from your higher brain, but if your higher brain is asleep, your lower brain can still act out without waking your higher brain when on Ambien. This makes Ambien a very risky drug, and the internet is full of stories of bizarre, career-ending, or tragic behavior behind Ambien, essentially due to triggered sleepwalking or fugue states where you have no idea that you may be doing something dangerous or harmful, or just embarrassing.

And if your Ambien is not Ambien CR, it will not allow you to get back to sleep better after waking, because it has a very short half-life, and is only effective for the first couple of hours after you take it.

Rather than treat the symptom, it might be better to treat the cause. A lifestyle that gets lots of daylight in early hours and very little blue light after sunset can help reset your circadian clock, by regulating when your pineal gland produces melatonin. You can even take melatonin directly, which treats both the cause as well as the symptom.

Most people fall asleep in 15 minutes or so, most of the time. Anything else points to a sleep disorder, but one beyond the scope of this forum.

One thing xPAP does is gives you more chances to dream, by reducing arousals or partial arousals. It is not unusual for dreaming to rebound once in therapy. But disturbed dreaming is another sleep disorder, also beyond the scope of this forum.

If you are diagnosed with SA, and you use xPAP and get a lower AHI, then you are doing all you can do for your SA. Everything else you may be experiencing is NOT treated by xPAP, and it makes the most sense to expect relief from treating those issues separately, in conjunction with continuing good xPAP therapy.

Folks come here and a lot of them learn to take active control of their therapy, and there are a lot of happy endings because of this forum and the wonderful people here. I would take that as an example, and take control of the other things that will give you relief from things NOT related to SA as well. You have a good chance of getting the xPAP therapy right and treating your SA, but xPAP is only really good for that, and nothing else. There are answers, but the chance of finding them here is a lot lower, because those issues are not related to xPAP therapy or SA. Looking elsewhere and using the example here of taking control are probably the two best recommendations.

I know that is not easy, but the best way to solve multiple problems is to understand them, and to distinguish them from each other so that you can figure out what path to take. Without doing that, everything is all mixed up and it is hard to know what to do. It works better if you identify and understand each issue separately, and then take targeted measures based on knowing what is happening and why.

This forum is not designed to help with non-SA issues, although there still may be good advice here, and folks here will still want to help. But I think it makes sense to use this forum for those purposes only as an adjunct to finding answers by actively searching elsewhere, where the chance of getting real help for those issues is probably a lot better.
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#8
(07-12-2015, 09:03 PM)mzdawn74 Wrote: Hello,

So, I have a quick update about how last night went and also a few questions.

I took 5mg of Ambien last night, but it didn't really help me fall asleep quicker. But, I was able to fall back asleep when I woke up this morning which I haven't been able to do because of weird thoughts and dreams ( will explain later in post). I normally don't have an issue with falling asleep, more so with staying asleep. I've noticed lately that I always wake up around the same time each morning. Do you think if I started going to bed earlier I might get more sleep that way?

Secondly, I keep having the issue of congestion in my nose and end up taking the mask off after about 4 hours. Yesterday I managed to wear it for almost 6, so I am making some progress. I have been using the Neilmed sinus rinse and today began using Flonase to help with my allergies. I've tried playing with the humidity, no help there. Any other suggestions?

Last but not least, I have been having these really strange confusing dreams or dream like state in between my frequent wakings. These dreams make no sense what so ever and are very weird. They make me feel very confused, disoriented, panicky, and once that happens I'm awake and fearful of going back to sleep. I get scared that if I don't snap myself out of this state my mind will stay like that. I mentioned this before on another forum and really got no response. I'm curious as to what these are? Are they hallucinations from the oxygen deprivation? Has anyone else had these?
Thanks

Have you discussed all of these things with your doctor? I think your GP will be a great resource to talk to about this. We can only surmise what is happening to you and I, for one, don't want to guess what the cause of all of this is for you.

What TyroneShoes said.

Hope things work out better for you. Seems as though you are sleeping longer with the mask. Great job.
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#9
(07-13-2015, 04:06 AM)me50 Wrote:
(07-12-2015, 09:03 PM)mzdawn74 Wrote: Hello,

So, I have a quick update about how last night went and also a few questions.

I took 5mg of Ambien last night, but it didn't really help me fall asleep quicker. But, I was able to fall back asleep when I woke up this morning which I haven't been able to do because of weird thoughts and dreams ( will explain later in post). I normally don't have an issue with falling asleep, more so with staying asleep. I've noticed lately that I always wake up around the same time each morning. Do you think if I started going to bed earlier I might get more sleep that way?

Secondly, I keep having the issue of congestion in my nose and end up taking the mask off after about 4 hours. Yesterday I managed to wear it for almost 6, so I am making some progress. I have been using the Neilmed sinus rinse and today began using Flonase to help with my allergies. I've tried playing with the humidity, no help there. Any other suggestions?

Last but not least, I have been having these really strange confusing dreams or dream like state in between my frequent wakings. These dreams make no sense what so ever and are very weird. They make me feel very confused, disoriented, panicky, and once that happens I'm awake and fearful of going back to sleep. I get scared that if I don't snap myself out of this state my mind will stay like that. I mentioned this before on another forum and really got no response. I'm curious as to what these are? Are they hallucinations from the oxygen deprivation? Has anyone else had these?
Thanks

Have you discussed all of these things with your doctor? I think your GP will be a great resource to talk to about this. We can only surmise what is happening to you and I, for one, don't want to guess what the cause of all of this is for you.

What TyroneShoes said.

Hope things work out better for you. Seems as though you are sleeping longer with the mask. Great job.


Yes I have. As far as the sleep and dreaming issue goes he thinks it will get better with the cpap treatment. As to the congestion he prescribed Flonase.

I only asked those questions because I was just curious if anyone here experienced similar types of dreams? I did locate a few articles online and a post here that described similar experiences.

I understand not all of my symptoms can be explained away by OSA, but a majority of them are related. I also understand that no one on this site is a doctor. I appreciate all of the advice I get here. Maybe I will keep my questions to myself as I seemed to ruffle a few feathers, and that was not my intention at all. I'm just new to this whole thing and thought that this would be a place to ask those types of questions.

Thank you.

(07-13-2015, 04:31 AM)mzdawn74 Wrote:
(07-13-2015, 04:06 AM)me50 Wrote:
(07-12-2015, 09:03 PM)mzdawn74 Wrote: Hello,

So, I have a quick update about how last night went and also a few questions.

I took 5mg of Ambien last night, but it didn't really help me fall asleep quicker. But, I was able to fall back asleep when I woke up this morning which I haven't been able to do because of weird thoughts and dreams ( will explain later in post). I normally don't have an issue with falling asleep, more so with staying asleep. I've noticed lately that I always wake up around the same time each morning. Do you think if I started going to bed earlier I might get more sleep that way?

Secondly, I keep having the issue of congestion in my nose and end up taking the mask off after about 4 hours. Yesterday I managed to wear it for almost 6, so I am making some progress. I have been using the Neilmed sinus rinse and today began using Flonase to help with my allergies. I've tried playing with the humidity, no help there. Any other suggestions?

Last but not least, I have been having these really strange confusing dreams or dream like state in between my frequent wakings. These dreams make no sense what so ever and are very weird. They make me feel very confused, disoriented, panicky, and once that happens I'm awake and fearful of going back to sleep. I get scared that if I don't snap myself out of this state my mind will stay like that. I mentioned this before on another forum and really got no response. I'm curious as to what these are? Are they hallucinations from the oxygen deprivation? Has anyone else had these?
Thanks

Have you discussed all of these things with your doctor? I think your GP will be a great resource to talk to about this. We can only surmise what is happening to you and I, for one, don't want to guess what the cause of all of this is for you.

What TyroneShoes said.

Hope things work out better for you. Seems as though you are sleeping longer with the mask. Great job.


Yes I have. As far as the sleep and dreaming issue goes he thinks it will get better with the cpap treatment. As to the congestion he prescribed Flonase.

I only asked those questions because I was just curious if anyone here experienced similar types of dreams? I did locate a few articles online and a post here that described similar experiences.

I understand not all of my symptoms can be explained away by OSA, but a majority of them are related. I also understand that no one on this site is a doctor. I appreciate all of the advice I get here. Maybe I will keep my questions to myself as I seemed to ruffle a few feathers, and that was not my intention at all. I'm just new to this whole thing and thought that this would be a place to ask those types of questions.

Thank you.

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#10
Quote:I understand not all of my symptoms can be explained away by OSA, but a majority of them are related. I also understand that no one on this site is a doctor. I appreciate all of the advice I get here. Maybe I will keep my questions to myself as I seemed to ruffle a few feathers, and that was not my intention at all. I'm just new to this whole thing and thought that this would be a place to ask those types of questions.

Dawn, please don't keep the questions to yourself as I think you're are asking some great ones. The advice to consult your doctor is never wrong but as one who has learned from first hand experience, they don't always have the answers as I think this board is well aware. Even if no one can immediately relate to your concerns, you never know who might later read your post and be able to offer the benefit of their experiences with the understanding they aren't doctors. Please keep posting your concerns as we all want to help you get through the tough times you are having.

49er

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