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What the Manufacturers REALLY Think About the Patients
#41
(12-08-2015, 09:20 AM)Sleeprider Wrote: The question was what do the manufacturers think about the patients. That has little to do with the insurance framework, and everything to do with the regulatory framework in which machines are sold.

But that regulatory framework was designed and built by the insurance companies and the DME industry. They lobby the US congress heavily so that their profits are maximized, they are very very good at it, and they are very very successful. The insurance framework and the regulatory framework are inseparably entwined.

Quote:The only way manufacturers change their culture is if CPAP and related equipment becomes dis-coupled from the prescription and DME environment, and that is unlikely at this point.

That's very true. The only way it will happen is a grass roots effort to break up the stranglehold that the insurance companies have on the US medical industry. The insurance companies are the problem.

The practice of discounting healthcare costs for insurance companies is so stupid it makes me mad. Every provider should have a list of prices for their services and goods. That includes doctors and equipment providers. As it is the only one who can tell you those costs is the insurance companies. The medical providers can't tell you how much their goods and services are going to cost you until after they provide them for you! If that one thing were changed we'd see CPAP machines being made for us, not for the providers. And we'd see the same changes everywhere across the industry. Competition would lead to reduced costs and improved services. The only people who stand to not benefit from such a change is the insurance companies and DME manufacturers and suppliers.

Quote:The decision whether or not to provide clinician manuals and more diagnostic software is not entirely made at the manufacturer level, and I'm not aware of a regulatory mandate that prevents the distribution of clinical and technical information to patients, although this seems to be policy. So where is the problem? Why can't manufacturers make their clinical information more public?

There is no incentive for them to do so.
Sleepster
Apnea Board Moderator
www.ApneaBoard.com


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#42
(12-08-2015, 07:57 PM)SuperSleeper Wrote:
(12-08-2015, 07:05 PM)cate1898 Wrote: A smilie holding up a LIKE sign!

Like this?

like

like I like it. Coffee


Using FlashAir W-03 SD card in machine. Access through wifi with FlashPAP or Sleep Master utilities.

I wanted to learn Binary so I enrolled in Binary 101. I seemed to have missed the first four courses. Big Grinnie

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#43
(12-09-2015, 08:51 AM)AlanE Wrote: Like this?

like


I like it too!!
APNEABOARD - A great place to be if you're a hosehead!! Rolleyes

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EVERY ACCOMPLISHMENT BEGINS WITH THE DECISION TO TRY!
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#44
(12-07-2015, 05:49 PM)eseedhouse Wrote:
(12-05-2015, 11:08 PM)Mark Douglas Wrote: Root cause analysis tells us gvt interference in market place is why medical care cost so much in the US of A.
Rant off Rolleyes

Rants should at least be based on some facts. For instance in Canada where we have a whole lot more "government interference" in the market place, medical costs are in fact much less as a percentage of GDP, and with equal or better performance. And this is true everywhere where single payer government health insurance has been introduced. I don't know what "Root Cause Analysis" shows (or even means, come to that) [Here you go http://rootcauseanalysis.info/ ] but I know that a counterexample disproves a theory and that there are a whole lot of counterexamples to your particular theory.

And the reason for this is something called the law of large numbers which was discovered over a century ago and made, among other things, the Life insurance industry possible. The law of large numbers isn't opinion, it's mathematical fact.

Ed if you are going to criticize please try to be accurate. I know nothing of medical costs in Canada but here is an explanation of why med costs are so out of control in the US of A.

Quote: Why is Health Care Expensive? WWII Wage Controls

Health care costs are out-of-control because consumers pay only 14% of health care costs out-of-pocket. Why do consumers pay so little? Because price and wage controls during WWII led to employer-paid health care as a way to circumvent the wage ceilings, and we've been paying a huge price for the last 60 years because of the significant distortions in health care market resulting directly from the price/wage controls.

Jeff Jacoby summarizes the situation extremely well in today's Boston Globe, here are some exerpts from his column "The Tax-code Quirk and the Health Care Mess:"

"Why is it that in every other field where enormous technological strides have been made, total costs have fallen over time, but in health care they have increased?

The answer is simple: Health care costs so much because most of us pay so little for it. And we pay so little -- out-of-pocket expenses amount to just 14 cents of every health dollar spent in this country -- because a third party nearly always picks up the tab. For most working Americans, that third party is an insurance company paid by their employers.

All of this is due to a quirk in tax policy dating to World War II, when employers looking for a way to enhance workers' salaries without running afoul of federal wage controls hit on the idea of providing medical benefits. When the IRS agreed not to treat such benefits as taxable income, it triggered a far-reaching change in the way Americans paid for health care.

What had been a relatively free market in medical services, with patients transacting directly with doctors and hospitals, gave way to a third-party system, in which employers paid the insurance companies, and insurance companies paid the bills. Americans increasingly used insurance to cover routine medical expenses, not just major unexpected costs like hospitalization or surgery. Imagine what automobile insurance would cost if people insisted on plans that had low deductibles . . . or policies that included not just major body work, but also oil changes and gas."


I use my PAP machine nightly and I feel great!
Updated: Philips Respironics System One (60 Series)
RemStar BiPAP Auto with Bi-FlexModel 760P -
Rise Time x3 Fixed Bi-Level EPAP 9.0 IPAP 11.5 (cmH2O)
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#45
Good stuff here Sleepster! I agree with everything you said, and double for "insurance companies are the problem". I'm old enough to remember what medical care was before insurance, and my dad was the town pediatrician. He used to be paid in chickens (from a farmer), and shoes (local Buster Brown storeowner). Our Irish Setter was payment from a patient. House calls? Can you imagine?

(12-08-2015, 09:02 PM)Sleepster Wrote:
(12-08-2015, 09:20 AM)Sleeprider Wrote: The question was what do the manufacturers think about the patients. That has little to do with the insurance framework, and everything to do with the regulatory framework in which machines are sold.

But that regulatory framework was designed and built by the insurance companies and the DME industry. They lobby the US congress heavily so that their profits are maximized, they are very very good at it, and they are very very successful. The insurance framework and the regulatory framework are inseparably entwined.

Quote:The only way manufacturers change their culture is if CPAP and related equipment becomes dis-coupled from the prescription and DME environment, and that is unlikely at this point.

That's very true. The only way it will happen is a grass roots effort to break up the stranglehold that the insurance companies have on the US medical industry. The insurance companies are the problem.

The practice of discounting healthcare costs for insurance companies is so stupid it makes me mad. Every provider should have a list of prices for their services and goods. That includes doctors and equipment providers. As it is the only one who can tell you those costs is the insurance companies. The medical providers can't tell you how much their goods and services are going to cost you until after they provide them for you! If that one thing were changed we'd see CPAP machines being made for us, not for the providers. And we'd see the same changes everywhere across the industry. Competition would lead to reduced costs and improved services. The only people who stand to not benefit from such a change is the insurance companies and DME manufacturers and suppliers.

Quote:The decision whether or not to provide clinician manuals and more diagnostic software is not entirely made at the manufacturer level, and I'm not aware of a regulatory mandate that prevents the distribution of clinical and technical information to patients, although this seems to be policy. So where is the problem? Why can't manufacturers make their clinical information more public?

There is no incentive for them to do so.

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#46
Amusing. Quoting an internet source as an expert. It's expensive because we pay so little? really? If I got prime rib for $1 a pound I would personally not call it expensive.

Sorry folks, I just couldn't resist.
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#47
(12-09-2015, 09:36 AM)Mark Douglas Wrote: Ed if you are going to criticize please try to be accurate. I know nothing of medical costs in Canada but here is an explanation of why med costs are so out of control in the US of A.

Name one thing I said that is factually inaccurate. Your quotes were all opinions based on no actual facts that I could see. It is a FACT that every country with a single payer medical insurance plan has lower costs and gets better results than what you have in the USA. It is also a fact that since the Affordable Care Act came in a lot fewer people are without health insurance. The only thing good about the ACA is that it's better than what came before it. Otherwise it's a lousy compromise. But comparing the results of the ACA to *any* other country with a good single payer medicare plan and they all win.

We have differing opinions, and that's fine with me. But opinions should be based on reality...well we are off topic. I will not reply if you do and you can keep your opinion.

So my part ends here. You get the last word if you like. Or we could just agree that neither of us are going to change our minds and leave it at that. Up to you.


Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

I am neither a Doctor, nor any other kind of medical professional.

Actually you know, it is what it isn't.
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#48
Speaking of US costs vs.the rest of the world, folks might want to google, "In Need of a New Hip, but Priced Out of the U.S.". This was before the ACA in 2013 and this guy had health insurance. But the procedure wasn't covered because his degenerative conditions were related to a sports injury that was considered a pre existing condition.

He ended up having the surgery in Belgium for $13, 600 which included all fees. US costs would have been at least $78,000 which did not include the surgeon's fees.

Anyway, it is also a fascinating article as to why competition for joint implants has not bought down costs.

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#49
To address the original topic, my experiences have been varied in calling the companies directly. When I was using my Devilbiss Autopap, I had trouble with the SmartLink feature. Because I wasn't happy with the proposal for fixing it, I called the company directly.

The woman that I initially spoke with treated me as described in this thread. Like a nobody. Smile But interestingly, when I spoke to tech support in an attempt to troubleshoot the difficulties, I encountered a totally different attitude which was total respect.

Recently, I called Respironics regarding difficulties using the Dreamwear mask that I was having trouble with and received a return call from their expert on the same day. He was very helpful.

I think initially they did ask if I had a DME but when I told them I had purchased it online due to difficulties in getting to one, they immediately agreed to have this person call me back.

I did return the mask which is a whole other post.

49er
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#50
(12-10-2015, 12:17 AM)eseedhouse Wrote:
(12-09-2015, 09:36 AM)Mark Douglas Wrote: Ed if you are going to criticize please try to be accurate. I know nothing of medical costs in Canada but here is an explanation of why med costs are so out of control in the US of A.

Name one thing I said that is factually inaccurate. Your quotes were all opinions based on no actual facts that I could see. It is a FACT that every country with a single payer medical insurance plan has lower costs and gets better results than what you have in the USA. It is also a fact that since the Affordable Care Act came in a lot fewer people are without health insurance. The only thing good about the ACA is that it's better than what came before it. Otherwise it's a lousy compromise. But comparing the results of the ACA to *any* other country with a good single payer medicare plan and they all win.

We have differing opinions, and that's fine with me. But opinions should be based on reality...well we are off topic. I will not reply if you do and you can keep your opinion.

So my part ends here. You get the last word if you like. Or we could just agree that neither of us are going to change our minds and leave it at that. Up to you.
Not off topic. If you want to understand why CPAP machine manufacturers don not identify the end user as the customer. I made an assertion that RCA leads to the conclusion gvt interference directly leads to the high cost of medical care in the USA and you chose to attack it And provide your personal opinion re health care costs and outcome in the USA with no reference to source.
I supplied a link to an easy to comprehend article by
Quote:Dr. Mark J. Perry is a professor of economics and finance in the School of Management at the Flint campus of the University of Michigan. Perry holds two graduate degrees in economics (M.A. and Ph.D.) from George Mason University near Washington, D.C. In addition, he holds an MBA degree in finance from the Curtis L. Carlson School of Management at the University of Minnesota. In addition to a faculty appointment at the University of Michigan-Flint, Perry is also a visiting scholar at The American Enterprise Institute in Washington, D.C.
and you dismiss as opinion of someone who makes his living in the field of economics and finance. Are your qualifications superior to his?
There is much more supporting documentation should you care to avail yourself to it.
But is OK Ed. You probably had another bad night and I understand that from first person experience.
I use my PAP machine nightly and I feel great!
Updated: Philips Respironics System One (60 Series)
RemStar BiPAP Auto with Bi-FlexModel 760P -
Rise Time x3 Fixed Bi-Level EPAP 9.0 IPAP 11.5 (cmH2O)
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