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Why no love for FFM?
#11
RE: Why no love for FFM?
(05-26-2018, 08:12 AM)JesseLee Wrote: I would like to add that anyone who fought the nasal pillows, which I've read lots of struggles, and won that battle, you have my respect.

I'm not a huge fan of nasal-pillows masks so far, except that I sort of lucked out by happening to choose the Brevida, which has a different type of protrusion than the P10 and Dreamwear gel-pil and some others. The Brevida is comfortable to me, which is to say that the invasion of the nostrils is not major. I think my next try will be a Wisp nasal (non-pillows), or possibly an N20 although I'm leaning toward the Wisp.

A very good alternative in some ways is the nasal-cushion type, without protrusions, for instance the Dreamwear Nasal. Very comfortable and non-invasive. To me, the downside of that one, in addition to the noise, is that it leaks when side-sleeping (which is fixed by switching to the Dreamwear gel-pillows nosepiece). If there is any other mask of that non-invasive cushion type without the leakage problem, I'd love to hear about it. The Brevida almost approximates that, but not really.
"I wanted to be a Boy Scout, but I had all the wrong qualities.  They were looking for kids who were trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.  Whereas I tended to be devious, fickle, obstructive, hostile, rude, mean, defiant, glum, extravagant, cowardly, dirty, and sacrilegious."  (George Carlin)
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#12
RE: Why no love for FFM?
I'm not here to harsh your vibe, and if a FFM is all you can use, that's what you should use. For those of us with an option, resistance is futile. I have used nasal pillows for nearly 12 years exclusively and never owned a FFM. If it feels better, you can consider my enthusiastic endorsement of nasal pillows is borne out of ignorance, but then again, maybe I'm onto something. Smile
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#13
RE: Why no love for FFM?
I'm sure that you know of the hybrid masks like the new Dreamwear FFM and the Amara View. I have an Amara view and its a nice mask, I've used it a dozen times or so. It seems bizarre when switching from Simplus to Amara View, but I could get used to it.
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#14
RE: Why no love for FFM?
I use the Resmed P10 pillows and the Resmed F20 full face mask. I prefer the P10 because I get better results. I sleep better and my AHI's are always lower.

If your going to try pillows I recommend the P10.
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#15
RE: Why no love for FFM?
(05-26-2018, 09:01 AM)Sleeprider Wrote: I'm not here to harsh your vibe, and if a FFM is all you can use, that's what you should use.  For those of us with an option, resistance is futile.  I have used nasal pillows for nearly 12 years exclusively and never owned a FFM.  If it feels better, you can consider my enthusiastic endorsement of nasal pillows is borne out of ignorance, but then again, maybe I'm onto something.  Smile

Like I said earlier, I've given pillows a shot but i would have to work hard, like others have, to get them on a nightly use basis. 

If I come across a P10 deal I guarantee I will purchase them. I guarantee a honest try too.
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#16
RE: Why no love for FFM?
(05-26-2018, 08:33 AM)DeepBreathing Wrote: I've only had time to skim the paper but it seems they were studying the effects of nasal masks. FFM and pillows were specifically excluded from the study. I'll read the whole thing in more detail but at first glance it appears nasal masks are the culprit.

Oho! Very interesting, thanks. I didn't even catch that; I was paying attention only to the articles I read that referenced that paper, not to the paper itself.

So to me it all seems rather confusing. Is there in fact a culprit at all, and is it nasal masks? I don't know why they excluded FFMs. It would seem that anything that pushes in on the lower jaw would be potentially damaging, but the study has to do with pushing on the upper jaw instead.

Or is the whole thing an inadvertent boondoggle, with no reason to be concerned?

FWIW, a previous thread about it here at AB is: http://www.apneaboard.com/forums/Thread-...e-a-Lawyer
"I wanted to be a Boy Scout, but I had all the wrong qualities.  They were looking for kids who were trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.  Whereas I tended to be devious, fickle, obstructive, hostile, rude, mean, defiant, glum, extravagant, cowardly, dirty, and sacrilegious."  (George Carlin)
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#17
RE: Why no love for FFM?
Quoting an abstract I found:

Background:
Many patients with obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) use nasal continuous positive airway pressure (nCPAP) as a first-line therapy. Previous studies have reported midfacial hypoplasia inchildren using nCPAP. The aim of this study is to assess the craniofacial changes in adult subjects with OSA after nCPAP use.
 Methods:
Forty-six Japanese subjects who used nCPAP for a minimum of 2 years had both a baselineand a follow-up cephalometric radiograph taken. These two radiographs were analyzed, andchanges in craniofacial structures were assessed. The cephalometric measurements evaluated were related to face height, interarch relationship, and tooth position.
 Results:
Most of the patients with OSA were men (89.1%), and the mean baseline values for age,BMI, and apnea-hypopnea index (AHI) were 56.3
6
13.4 years, 26.8
6
5.6 kg/m
2
 , and 42.0
6
18.6/h.The average duration of nCPAP use was 35.0
6
6.7 months. After nCPAP use, cephalometricvariables demonstrated a significant retrusion of the anterior maxilla, a decrease in maxillary-mandibular discrepancy, a setback of the supramentale and chin positions, a retroclination of maxillary incisors, and a decrease of convexity. However, significant correlations between thecraniofacial changes, demographic variables, or the duration of nCPAP use could not be identified.None of the patients self-reported any permanent change of occlusion or facial profile.
Conclusion:
The use of an nCPAP machine for 
.
2 years may change craniofacial form by reduc-ing maxillary and mandibular prominence and/or by altering the relationship between the dentalarches.
CHEST 2010; 138(4):870–874
This study concentrates on adults.
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#18
RE: Why no love for FFM?
Thank you for that. I was able to take off my glasses and read it. Made me feel young again! Big Grin
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Advisory Members serve as an "Advisory Committee" to help shape Apnea Board's rules & policies.

Membership in the Advisory Members group does not imply medical expertise or qualification for advising Sleep Apnea patients concerning their treatment.



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#19
RE: Why no love for FFM?
Separate from the thing about possible Smashed Face Syndrome (whether that's real or not, and whether it applies to FFMs or not!), a big reason for avoiding FFMs is just to try to keep it simple. If a patient has no problem with mouth-breathing and doesn't need to resort to chin straps, etc., then "less is more". What first attracted me to modern masks like the Brevida and similar was (I'm almost embarrassed to admit being such a consumerdroid, susceptible to advertising) the photos in the manufacturers' brochures showing how small and lightweight the masks are, and sometimes what minimal headgear they have, like just one strap. That's the opposite of the gas-mask effect that I've griped about, and to me it's important. I don't want the device to weigh a lot or to take up a lot of face-space.
"I wanted to be a Boy Scout, but I had all the wrong qualities.  They were looking for kids who were trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.  Whereas I tended to be devious, fickle, obstructive, hostile, rude, mean, defiant, glum, extravagant, cowardly, dirty, and sacrilegious."  (George Carlin)
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#20
RE: Why no love for FFM?
The article openly states inconclusiveness. But it's a worthy thought. I akin it to the enlarged nostril complaints/concerns that I've read here. I dont refute either of these two issues here shouldn't warrant concern.

To one person that experiences one of these problems, makes it important, at least to the person that suffers.
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